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  1. #411
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    OP, the one big eye-opener I've had since my DS started school is that they expect a lot pretty much immediately. And if your child learns differently, or doesn't have the standard behaviour, they very quickly (too quickly in my mind) put them into a box and label it 'issues'. This is grossly wrong! I've seen children who are little psychopaths behind the scenes but angels in class and get constant rewards from teachers. But children who are super smart and kindhearted in general get labelled as problematic in class for being overly fidgety, misunderstood, not stimulated enough or in the right ways, etc.

    Your daughter may be a brilliant child who is not suiting the environment, that's all. A psych may help sure but I think it's unfair that she should need one as she may be perfectly awesome as she is, but the system expects something different from her.

  2. #412
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    Default offering choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Rose View Post
    Where did Holt say "don't offer the learner choice" or is that an interpretation?

    To me unschooling is child led. If a child asks to learn about biology or do a maths sheet, then certainly you can say here they are. As far as I can see, you can't say do you want to sit down and do this maths sheet together.

    Unschooling4 said to me, "lol we don't sit around playing video games all day, they are constantly learning day and night, they outsource other teachings and they write from text books" What a few of us want to see is an example of a day. I know there isn't a typical day but something along the lines of "my child asked about dinosaurs so we got out a book on that. The book mentioned Gondwanaland so my child then researched what that was and this led to .......... etc etc.

    I feel that there is no set criteria for unschooling, it can be interpreted however anyone wants it, just provided there is no curriculum as that becomes homeschooling.

    I have no idea who an unschooling guru is. I googled and the name Sandra Dodd came up. Sandra herself writes there as many definitions of unschooling as there are people doing it. on her page she has definitions of unschooling:-


    Q: What is unschooling?
    A: Unschooling is a term that the late John Holt coined in the late ‘70's to describe learning that is based on a child's interests and needs. Unschooling does not begin with a parent's notion of what is important to learn and then turn the choices of how to learn the content over to a child. Rather, it begins with the child's natural curiosity and expands from there. Unschooling is not "instruction free" learning. If a child wants to learn to read, an unschooling parent may offer instruction by providing help with decoding, reading to the child, and giving the child ample opportunity to encounter words. If the child is uninterested in these supports, the parent backs off until the child asks for help. The most important thing about the unschooling process is that the child is in charge of the learning, not the adult. Unschoolers often do no traditional school work, yet they do learn traditional subject matter. They learn it as a natural extension of exploring their own personal interests.

    Q:
    Is Eclectic or interest-led learning the same as unschooling?
    A:If the terms "Eclectic" and "interest-led" learning describe homeschooling practices which put the child's learning needs before parental notions of what is important to learn, then the term "unschooling" applies. However, if "Eclectic" homeschooling simply means using multiple teaching methods, then Eclectic homeschooling is not unschooling.

    http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition

    I also found a mother who unschools who had this on her website

    http://www.sheilabaranoski.com/the-d...cookie-baking/

    The way I see it, is if you say you are unschooling, you can have the resources there but if a child never asks about/for it, they never see it.

    What happens when a child doesn't ask questions? What if when they are 13 they want to spend their days watching tv, playing video games or just ride their bike. What happens then?

    Holt didn't say "don't offer the learner choice."

    That's my point. People here are saying we can't give kids new choices, which is ridiculous.

    A guru is an influential teacher or popular expert. I have never heard of Sheila so I doubt she is much of a guru, especially compared to Holt.

    Again, even if she was a guru, we can just follow Holt's teaching instead. Just as Sandra Dodd said, there are many definitions of unschooling. So how can you claim that unschoolers can't suggest activities, especially when that doesn't contradict Holt's definition?

    Sheila also said this:
    Some people will describe it as an example of unschooling, and it can be. Other people say things like, “We use curriculum but do some unschooling” (and then talk about cookie baking). Or they’ll talk about using cookie baking instead of curriculum, but you can tell they still haven’t really “gotten” unschooling, because they try to turn even a fun thing like cookie baking into a lesson. Or they’re really concerned that their kids aren’t doing enough math, so they’ll force (or “strongly suggest”) that they bake more cookies so they “learn fractions”. Or they’re really concerned that their kids don’t read enough, so they make them research cookie recipes themselves, give Mom a summary of the recipe reviews, and look up any words they don’t know.

    It seems like her issue is really with forced learning.

    Anyway, even she is happy to sit stuff on the table for the kids to be exposed to.

    The way many commentors here are acting, unschoolers couldn't go on a holiday, because that would be exposing kids to educational opportunities they didn't ask for because they didn't know about them.

  3. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    No you said you can use khan academy and YouTube or holidays and YouTube. Or a good book to help you hone your grammar skills to become a contributing member of society.
    I never said anything about being a member of society.

    I said you could use khan academy and YouTube for maths.

    A. That's two things.
    B. I didn't even say anything about limiting yourself to these two things. I could have listed more.

  4. #414
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    Default WWYD? Trouble settling into big school

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Is Coming View Post
    I never said anything about being a member of society.

    I said you could use khan academy and YouTube for maths.

    A. That's two things.
    B. I didn't even say anything about limiting yourself to these two things. I could have listed more.
    The post you were responding to I believe said that and that was your response. You wanted an example of when YouTube was given as a main tool in learning and I gave you one.

    Anyways, I think it's time for me to move on from this discussion. I don't have an issue with homeschooling. My skepticism lies with only teaching a child what they are interested in. By all means, when your child shows interest in a subject explore it more and encourage them, but I feel there are core subjects they should learn regardless of their interests and I am not convinced that would be accomplished with unschooling.
    Last edited by HollyGolightly81; 10-05-2017 at 17:24.

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  6. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    The post you were responding to I believe said that and that was your response. You wanted an example of when YouTube was given as a main tool in learning and I gave you one.

    Anyways, I think it's time for me to move on from this discussion. I don't have an issue with homeschooling. My skepticism lies with only teaching a child what they are interested in. By all means, when your child shows interest in a subject explore it more and encourage them, but I feel there are core subjects they should learn regardless of their interests and I am not convinced that would be accomplished with unschooling.
    I asked for a quote of someone saying you can teach something using ONLY youtube. You did not give me one. Because no one made that comment.


    A lot of people have been using a straw man argument, about ONLY youtube.

    You are arguing against an imaginary opponent.

  7. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Is Coming View Post
    I asked for a quote of someone saying you can teach something using ONLY youtube. You did not give me one. Because no one made that comment.


    A lot of people have been using a straw man argument, about ONLY youtube.

    You are arguing against an imaginary opponent.
    If we're going to argue semantics, I don't believe I said people stated they 'only' used YouTube. I was trying to give examples and explain that I do not feel videos or distance learning compares to having a teacher with extensive knowledge on a topic in front of you, I've said that more than once.

  8. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    If we're going to argue semantics, I don't believe I said people stated they 'only' used YouTube. I was trying to give examples and explain that I do not feel videos or distance learning compares to having a teacher with extensive knowledge on a topic in front of you, I've said that more than once.
    I wasn't sure if you meant youtube alone, which is why I asked specifically asked if you meant youtube alone.

    I think we are actually agreeing with each other, because we both suggest using multiple resources.

  9. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Rose View Post
    Where did Holt say "don't offer the learner choice" or is that an interpretation?

    To me unschooling is child led. If a child asks to learn about biology or do a maths sheet, then certainly you can say here they are. As far as I can see, you can't say do you want to sit down and do this maths sheet together.

    Unschooling4 said to me, "lol we don't sit around playing video games all day, they are constantly learning day and night, they outsource other teachings and they write from text books" What a few of us want to see is an example of a day. I know there isn't a typical day but something along the lines of "my child asked about dinosaurs so we got out a book on that. The book mentioned Gondwanaland so my child then researched what that was and this led to .......... etc etc.

    I feel that there is no set criteria for unschooling, it can be interpreted however anyone wants it, just provided there is no curriculum as that becomes homeschooling.

    I have no idea who an unschooling guru is. I googled and the name Sandra Dodd came up. Sandra herself writes there as many definitions of unschooling as there are people doing it. on her page she has definitions of unschooling:-


    Q: What is unschooling?
    A: Unschooling is a term that the late John Holt coined in the late ‘70's to describe learning that is based on a child's interests and needs. Unschooling does not begin with a parent's notion of what is important to learn and then turn the choices of how to learn the content over to a child. Rather, it begins with the child's natural curiosity and expands from there. Unschooling is not "instruction free" learning. If a child wants to learn to read, an unschooling parent may offer instruction by providing help with decoding, reading to the child, and giving the child ample opportunity to encounter words. If the child is uninterested in these supports, the parent backs off until the child asks for help. The most important thing about the unschooling process is that the child is in charge of the learning, not the adult. Unschoolers often do no traditional school work, yet they do learn traditional subject matter. They learn it as a natural extension of exploring their own personal interests.

    Q:
    Is Eclectic or interest-led learning the same as unschooling?
    A:If the terms "Eclectic" and "interest-led" learning describe homeschooling practices which put the child's learning needs before parental notions of what is important to learn, then the term "unschooling" applies. However, if "Eclectic" homeschooling simply means using multiple teaching methods, then Eclectic homeschooling is not unschooling.

    http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition

    I also found a mother who unschools who had this on her website

    http://www.sheilabaranoski.com/the-d...cookie-baking/

    The way I see it, is if you say you are unschooling, you can have the resources there but if a child never asks about/for it, they never see it.

    What happens when a child doesn't ask questions? What if when they are 13 they want to spend their days watching tv, playing video games or just ride their bike. What happens then?

    I am not a huge follower of anyone when it comes to educating my kids, but I do love Beverly Paine and Dayna Martin.

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  11. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Is Coming View Post
    So NSW schools receive disability funding, but not per student?

    https://theconversation.com/disabili...on-state-30018

    "As an example, consider a student living in NSW diagnosed with a mental health illness. They may be recognised as having a disability and therefore receive funding to support them to successfully access schooling. However, if they were to move across the border into Queensland, they would no longer be recognised as having a disability. Therefore, the level of resourcing they received to support them in their schooling would change significantly."

    "In recent years, the federal government has implemented a program known as More Support for Students With Disabilities. Around A$300 million has been provided to the states and territories. Individual education departments were required to allocate this funding within the guidelines of a loose framework.

    Not surprisingly, states and territories identified different priorities within their systems. This led to funds being allocated in different ways.

    Some states, such as Tasmania and New South Wales, allocated additional staffing directly into schools (in various roles). Victoria identified “curriculum and assessment” for students with disabilities as part of its focus. "


    If you check out the link you can see how some home educating families can easily save the taxpayer $100,000 annually.

    http://www.education.vic.gov.au/scho...015levels.aspx

    It's rare to hear home educators seriously saying they want funding, because that would come with strings.

    As to your concern about funding undermining the teaching profession, I don't really see the problem.

    Schools are not there for the benefit of the teachers. Anyway, cashed up families looking for tutors would be good news for teachers.

    I am not sure I understand your comment about education being an investment, not a cost.

    It is expensive, and investing in the education of home educated children would still be an investment. In fact, it would be a better investment, as home educators get better results.

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/homeschool...04-gmlgu9.html
    Your article says *may* be eligible for support. It is not automatic. Schools do get funding but it's not like you can come in with your asd dx or mental health dx and magically get individual funding/support. A child needs several dx and then needs an access request. For this there needs to be a huge paper trail. This is for students in regular classes. If you read this document it says that a disability diagnosis doesn't automatically mean the school or student requires additional funding support. In other words, they can knock you back.

    https://schoolsequella.det.nsw.edu.a...ng-support.pdf

    If parents were being paid for educating their child when they aren't a qualified teacher then I I do think it undermines the profession.

    And it wouldn't bother me how much it costs to educate a child. For any country, education is the most important investment so shouldn't be viewed as an expense or cost.

    As for homeschool children doing better on naplan...well only 10% take the test. Plus the test is sent to the student's house where it is administered by the parent without any external supervision

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  13. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post

    As for homeschool children doing better on naplan...well only 10% take the test. Plus the test is sent to the student's house where it is administered by the parent without any external supervision
    There would be no reason for a parent to "cheat" on the naplan their child sits for the simple fact the home schoolers who get their children to do it are doing it so they know where their children are up to in their education. It is for them not for the government.

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