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  1. #101
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    Default professor John Hattie

    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    Speaking of research, have you looked into the work of John Hattie? He has conducted years and years of investigation into which aspects of education will bring about the best outcomes (I am referring specifically to learning here rather than social elements).

    Surprisingly, he found that inquiry-based learning (ie using children's interests as a foundation for learning) had a significantly lower impact on academic outcomes than was previously thought. The *single biggest* influence (positive or negative) was the teacher.

    I would also add that many, many teachers have a sound understanding of how children learn, and program by providing children with a range of opportunities to demonstrate their learning, not by 'forcing' children to do worksheets and tests. We even have undergone years of training and practical experience to qualify us to do so!

    Standardised testing is the arena in which children are 'forced' to do one kind of testing, and I think you'll find many teachers have problems with standardised testing for this reason.

    I'm sure you are pretty familiar with the curriculum, so would know about the different complexities of the content as reflected by the developmental stages reached by students. The problem with the curriculum is that it assumes children of the same chronological age are all the same. We all know this isn't true, and this is why learning is as a rule differentiated to cater not only for learning styles but developmental understanding too. Which is another way of saying learn what they need when it's needed.

    I'm doing time at the moment in maths. My year 4s 'should' be able to tell time to the minute at year 3 level, but one of my year 4s only knows o'clock and half past. So my job is to take him from what he knows and take the next step (quarter past and quarter to). I wouldn't be 'forcing' him to the year 4 outcomes because he is simply not there yet. Knowing what kids need and being responsive to that is not purely the domain of home schooling or unschooling.
    1. Why does inquiry-based learning only have an effect size of 0.31 when it is an approach to learning that seems to engage students and teachers so readily in the process of learning?

    —Question submitted by a school improvement resource team leader from Canada

    Professor  “It turns out that if you are learning surface-level information, the content, as contrasted with deep learning which is the relationships between the content, then problem-based learning, inquiry-based learning is pretty useless. But if you don’t teach the surface and the content, you’ve got nothing to inquire about. […] The reason it comes out very low on the chart is because most teachers introduce it far too early.”

    https://visible-learning.org/2016/07/ask-professor-john-hattie-a-question/

    This clearly does not apply to unschooling. Even regular home ed can give proper time for depth.

  2. #102
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    My daughter goes to a school which is play based learning for the first few years. They do little investigations with the iPad and present it to the class.

    My DD just started prep and had a very rough first term. She was cranky and said she didn't have any friends. This term she's adjusted to the hours better so is less tired, and has made some friends which has completely changed her outlook. She's now happy at school.

    OP could you ask some parents for play dates? Maybe ask the teacher who she thinks would be a good friend for your daughter? My DDs teacher recommended a couple of girls based on how they would fit with my girls. Then I tried to line up play dates there.

    In regards to all the other posts I'm really keen to see a photo of a child being passionate about learning . I don't imagine it's easy to show in a photo.

    We follow interesting tangents at home. Like magma under the earth and the tectonic plates. I google up stuff to show them. But here's an example why I'm not following their interests: why I'm googling up magma my 3yo is shouting "look up dead bodies! Look up someone chopping their arm off! Look up sharks eating children!" So yeah sometimes it's best not to follow their interests....

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  4. #103
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    Default youtube

    Quote Originally Posted by zelda View Post
    Because knowing something isnt the same as being able to teach it. And you seriously do educators a massive disservice by implying that it does.

    And what if your kids go on to more high level academic in areas that dont match up with your own educational persuits? You cant youtube senior physics.

    You've just demonstrated one of the big problems people have with the homeschooling community. Instead of admitting there are challenges that require additional thought and work (just like in other educational environments) and having an open conversation about it, you throw youtube (really? REALLY?) at me.

    I was actually genuinely interested in how home school community handled it. I have a gf in the process of starting an independent school rather than just doing home school due to her fears around this very thing.
    I didn't expect that reaction!

    I am being very open. Just because you ate unaware of what is on YouTube doesn't mean I am not being open.

    NASA and the Smithsonian are among the many prestigious organisations which offer quality content on YouTube.

    You just need to be discerning.

    "Enjoy video featuring Smithsonian experts covering the worlds of art, design, history, culture, science and technology."

    https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/user/smithsonian&ved=0ahUKEwjEu8zD8tzTAhVCm5QKHYodD30QF ghLMAw&usg=AFQjCNFOBl5ogx5G3wnIti_w9lfP_HAj9w&sig2 =xn6fZ025izZE7OmrLnOtwA

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Is Coming View Post
    1. Why does inquiry-based learning only have an effect size of 0.31 when it is an approach to learning that seems to engage students and teachers so readily in the process of learning?

    —Question submitted by a school improvement resource team leader from Canada

    Professor  “It turns out that if you are learning surface-level information, the content, as contrasted with deep learning which is the relationships between the content, then problem-based learning, inquiry-based learning is pretty useless. But if you don’t teach the surface and the content, you’ve got nothing to inquire about. […] The reason it comes out very low on the chart is because most teachers introduce it far too early.”

    https://visible-learning.org/2016/07...ie-a-question/

    This clearly does not apply to unschooling. Even regular home ed can give proper time for depth.
    I don't think I said that at all? It absolutely can give proper time for depth.

    How does this clearly not apply to homeschooling? Hattie said (it's on an interview I watched last week) about that question that it works at its best after the foundations have been laid down through prior explicit teaching so the inquiry is based upon some initial learning about the topic. I thought this would be counter to the philosophy of only following the child's interests?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Enough View Post
    In regards to all the other posts I'm really keen to see a photo of a child being passionate about learning . I don't imagine it's easy to show in a photo.
    I think it's an indictment of our society that most people think that.

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    Mum, PLEASE tell me about stoichiometric chemistry and differential calculus.... said no child ever.

    Only following children's current interests seems to me to be doing them a disservice. How are they ever going to know if they are actually interested in certain concepts if they are never introduced to them in the first place? While they may not be a fan of every subject they study in a main****** education, they at least develop a basic awareness of each subject and can genuinely choose what interests them, rather than only have a limited pool of potential interests to choose from.

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    I find it fascinating that stuff like Khan Academy is being cited as a resource. Main****** resource but in a virtual medium.

    I consider myself a bright person. I'm pre service primary. There is no way I could handle yr 10-12 maths. There is a reason that high school teachers specialise. For the same reason medical specialists do. Bc the subject material is so huge and complex, it's impossible to know every subject. Frankly I believe it's arrogant to think you (a general you) with no formal training, can give your child everything they need educationally.
    Last edited by delirium; 07-05-2017 at 13:32.

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
    Only following children's current interests seems to me to be doing them a disservice. How are they ever going to know if they are actually interested in certain concepts if they are never introduced to them in the first place? While they may not be a fan of every subject they study in a main****** education, they at least develop a basic awareness of each subject and can genuinely choose what interests them, rather than only have a limited pool of potential interests to choose from.
    Very true. I hate maths, always have. Had I had a choice I would have never did it. Unfortunately maths is needed every day and I'd be in a real pickle had I been allowed to not do it. Life is full of things we don't want to do but are good for us.

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  13. #109
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    Default child's interests

    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    I don't think I said that at all? It absolutely can give proper time for depth.

    How does this clearly not apply to homeschooling? Hattie said (it's on an interview I watched last week) about that question that it works at its best after the foundations have been laid down through prior explicit teaching so the inquiry is based upon some initial learning about the topic. I thought this would be counter to the philosophy of only following the child's interests?

    If I tried to do an enquiry unit on football with my son, it would be ineffective because he doesn't yet have any knowledge (content) so we wouldn't delve into proper enquiry.

    It doesn't apply to unschooling because my son enquires about his interests, things he already has a great deal of content knowledge for. Eg, he is enquiring currently about photo periods for the nocturnal and diurnal fish that he is owns and loves.

    Regular home ed can get around the content issue because the parent is very familiar with the child's content knowledge, so they can either do enquiry units on topics that the knowledge is already there for or bring the content knowledge up to scratch first.

    It would be more difficult for a classroom teacher to achieve this, although it is possible.

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    I would love to hear from adults who were home schooled, and how they find adult life, what they do for work, whether they feel on par with their education etc.
    I don't know any adults who were home schooled.
    My kids go to main s.tream schooling and really love it. They don't sit down at desks all day and listen to a teacher like has been implied. I really don't know what I'd do if they didn't cope because I don't have the patience or desire to home school, nor can I just stay at home and home school my kids when we both need to earn money. My kids engage in several after school activities, which we couldn't afford on one wage.

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