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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    @TheGooch
    Referring to your OP, I guess what I'm coming round to has more to do with your question of accountability. Is it right to have a line in the sand of 'accountable' when we don't all start on a level playing field in terms of education, knowledge, common sense, upbringing, culture etc.? Isn't that what all those QCs use to argue against custodial sentences?

    I don't know the answer to that. But then again, maybe the answer doesn't matter when, as you say, a child has died. Maybe the bottom line just needs to be 'did you f*** up in any way?' and leave it at that.
    The second bit. For me when there has been a serious consequence (such as a child dying) that could have been prevented by reasonable/logical judgements then someone's background does not matter one iota to me. At that point it's about the victim and future victim not the perpetrator or others who share some responsibility.

  2. #22
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    Default TRIGGER WARNING: Where is the line between tragic accident, tragic error of j...

    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    @TheGooch
    People jumped up and down about Zoe's mother and said her other child/ren should be taken away. I doubt people will be saying that about the parents of those poor, poor twins who have just drowned. It's hard for me to get my head around the difference when you take the emotion out of it, except that there is some kind of arbitrary spectrum we place these events along, where we know that certain things could never happen to us, and others, well maybe they just might...
    ?
    For me there is no difference in that in both cases the parents shoulder some responsibility. For me, the difference is the scale - the Zoe B case is higher on the culpability scale (blatantly disregarded significant risks as opposed to just negligently overlooking them).

  3. #23
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    I have read through this thread a few times and I am not sure how to answer.

    I do think my thoughts are similar to @Mod-Degrassi and @harvs.

    I do wonder whether there is too much blame put on parents/caregivers in some instances though.

    We cannot be watching/holding our children 24/7. We also cannot *know* or ensure everyone they come across in life will not cause harm.

    If course there are things we can do to try and stop all this happening but tragic accidents or incidents do happen.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    At that point it's about the victim and future victim.
    See, I get the thing about future victims. If a parent in such a case is genuinely a risk to their other children (or anyone else) then absolutely; children ought to be removed/they shouldn't be able to work with children...whatever the case. But the victim? If a child has died, it's not in their interest to punish anyone. It doesn't help a damn thing. All it does is make onlookers feel better about themselves.

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    See, I get the thing about future victims. If a parent in such a case is genuinely a risk to their other children (or anyone else) then absolutely; children ought to be removed/they shouldn't be able to work with children...whatever the case. But the victim? If a child has died, it's not in their interest to punish anyone. It doesn't help a damn thing. All it does is make onlookers feel better about themselves.
    What about deterrents? I bet if (where appropriate) parents of kids who have been injured/died in backyard pools were charged you would have a whole heap of parents with pools running around in a flap trying to put additional safety measures in play (as incidents could no longer be palmed off as blameless 'accidents.'.

  7. #26
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    I don't buy it. Show me some decent research that supports the idea of punitive measures as deterrents and maybe I'll change my mind.

    We, as humans, want to feel that things are just. Every society has its measures. When we - or others - are wronged in a way that can't be fixed, we want to punish the person so that we no longer feel that they have one up on us. It's a part of how we think, and how we function as human beings, but I don't think it ought to be a part of our justice system.

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    I don't buy it. Show me some decent research that supports the idea of punitive measures as deterrents and maybe I'll change my mind.

    We, as humans, want to feel that things are just. Every society has its measures. When we - or others - are wronged in a way that can't be fixed, we want to punish the person so that we no longer feel that they have one up on us. It's a part of how we think, and how we function as human beings, but I don't think it ought to be a part of our justice system.
    how do you suggest the rate of childhood deaths due to drowning in backyard pools is fixed? Or is it a don't even try as there is no hope/no-one is at fault/it's all just a chain of terrible accidents?

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    Do you really think that people are going to take more care with water due to fear of prosecution, than due to fear of their child drowning?

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    Do you really think that people are going to take more care with water due to fear of prosecution, than due to fear of their child drowning?
    Yes. It's not because I think parents don't love their kids. It's because people think 'it won't happen to me.' Their fence is fine. It will be fine if they just take a 10 minute shower while their kid is in the backyard - nothing will happen to them. Add a financial/custodian/other penalty for inadequate pool fencing/supervision and it adds a whole other dimension to the mix.

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn View Post
    Do you really think that people are going to take more care with water due to fear of prosecution, than due to fear of their child drowning?
    Exactly. If people are not concerned that their child might die, then other punitive measures aren't likely to be useful.

    In cases where risk of a fine/jail is a bigger motivator than the well being of your child, then there are other things going on they should be addressed.


 

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