Thanks @delirium for posting those articles at the start of the thread. There were a few observations that really resonated, especially about how one woman's freedom of personal choice can have wider consequences for the equality and freedom of women in general. It's a concept that I've found hard to crystallise in words, and the clear way it's explained in that article is wonderful.
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04-10-2016 22:11 #81Senior Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Last edited by Gentoo; 04-10-2016 at 22:14.
04-10-2016 22:13 #82
04-10-2016 22:35 #83
So much as been discussed I don't know where to begin Nice to see people are still civil and the thread is still open.
So on the topic of social conditioning - I kind of have a foot in each camp. I most certainly believe women in particular, are socialised to behave/dress according to the current fashions and belief systems, and that lots of women really don't realise how insidious it can be. On the other, I also think lots of women do make informed choices, either by going against the grain, to sticking to the social mores but recognising they are.
I certainly don't think we are sheep for following social conditioning. This period of history is one where I believe we can exercise the most informed control over our lives as women. But to negate them is allowing ourselves to be blind sided. We choose to shave our legs bc they feel more comfortable - but that is bc we are used to smooth legs which of course is not how nature intended us to be. So while we make ultimately make a decision to shave our legs bc we like the feel as opposed to worrying about what others think of our bushy legs lol the fact we feel more comfortable clean shaven to begin with shows it's about social conditioning, just in a less direct way.
Take foot binding in China. We now look with horror at the practice and the agony women went through. But back then, it was mothers, aunts and grandmothers that bound a young girl's feet (which stemmed from an Emperor having a concubine with child sized feet). Even though it was excruciating girls wanted their feet bound. Bc it was a right of passage, beautiful women had tiny looking feet. Now clearly I'm not saying shaving your legs or wearing a bikini is any where near foot binding. My point is that just bc we think we are freely choosing fashion doesn't mean it isn't without profound influence, often from men.
Going back to the OP and the notion that women shouldn't critique other women for fear of being b*tchy. What I have noticed is that if a woman is considered socially desirable/attractive the movement for critque is much shorter than those who aren't. A perfect example is a thread on here a while ago about weight and health. Someone said they were technically obese but were fit and healthy and that they didn't consider themselves 'fat'. There was also discussion of slow metabolisms. I was a bit taken back over the overt nastiness. This member was told in a passive aggressive way that being obese can never be healthy, that the pics of her in fact reflected she was quite overweight. That basically only a tiny percentage of people had slow metabolisms, that is was over eating, eating crap and being lazy.
So I see a clear double standard here. It's not ok to comment about a celeb who constantly puts her life and body out there and critique her. She's naturally thin (we actually don't know that for sure). She's a lovely person. But it's ok to critique others who don't fit the social standards of skinny, often under the guise of health etc. There is another Youtuber who is a big girl and she regularly talks about the abuse she cops.
One could argue Bec's size isn't healthy either, and that an eating disorder may exist, but that would be nasty.....
Wowsers, sorry that was a novel.
Last edited by delirium; 04-10-2016 at 22:37.
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04-10-2016 22:47 #84
And I wanted to point out I buy into social conditioning and mores too. I shave my pits bc for some bizarre reason when I sweat with long arm pit hair it stings and itches, has since puberty. But I shave my legs bc that's the expectation. I never leave the house without foundation bc I hate my freckles and as I age I'm scared I look old. I tend to not be swayed by 'on trend' fashion, rather dressing how I like, but I have huge issues with body image and weight (I'm top end of healthy weight but still not happy) and therefore am quite choosy that clothes don't make me look 'fat'.
I guess I want more for my daughter, which is why the issue is important to me.
04-10-2016 22:51 #85
But delirium, being that I've been one of the main people debating this topic with you, if you recall I felt the same about the comments in that weight thread as I do about the comments in the Bec thread. So no, what was going on in there was nasty as well and falls into the question I've been asking in the other thread, why do we as women think it's ok to be so critical of each other?
04-10-2016 22:53 #86
So now I honesty don't really care how I'm perceived as my focus has turned to her. And I look at Bec Judd and see my own daughter in 10 years time feeling ok about her body because someone as thin as her is proud.
I remember the thread you're referencing and I admired the poster for being so open. But the reality is fit is a fluid assessment that can't be judged by appearances (eg the classic "skinny fat" physique). I didn't comment at the time (apart from worrying that her husband had worn shorts to her wedding ) but pm'd her about her courage.
Sorry I'm all over the place with this. In short I have a very skinny 11 year old daughter who cops grief for that she has no control over so I now see all this very differently.
04-10-2016 23:08 #87
Nah, my post was all over the place too, it's a complex issue with so many avenues of discussion.
My DD is also exactly the same. Skinny, it's 100% genetic. She eats plenty, most certainly no ED's. She takes after DH's side who could eat a horse and still be string beans (and I'm soooo jealous of them). So I get what you mean, and I certainly am not advocating that skinny women, be it genetically or under eating, should be attacked. I guess I'm trying to communicate that I find there is far more movement for critiquing overweight/non socially normal women than thin, pretty women like Judd. In fact I argue many are more likely to rush to the aid of a woman like her actively making a career from her body and transparency, than a larger woman. Often by women who are not only thin themselves, but subscribe to those same social standards.
I'm not sure I'm making any sense In my head I am lol
04-10-2016 23:09 #88
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04-10-2016 23:12 #89
I guess one persons proud is another's person's "knobby"
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04-10-2016 23:16 #90
I'm genuinely interested why she's someone you'd openly say you dislike. Not trying to debate it just curious. I wouldn't even say that about a kardashian to be honest.
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