My partner and I are debating. Need help.

[hopeful1986]

I actually think the reason we s.l.u.t shame is more complicated in the context of sexual assault.

It's often an attitude of self preservation. "She was asking for it", or "she encouraged it", give us some sense of protection that it won't happen to us. We think if we don't dress provocatively, or we don't dance provocatively, then it won't happen to us. But that's a red herring as its not about how a person dresses.

I remember when Jill Maher went missing what was so confronting for so many of us was that she did nothing that unusual that put herself in harms way, yet she still was hurt.

This is such a hard area as I have daughters and I don't want them to dress to attract attention, yet don't want them to feel shame for hiding themselves.

I heard about people saying "why was she walking home alone at night?" about Jill Maher. People will always find a way to blame the woman. There was an article about a woman who was at home in her underwear when a man broke in and assaulted her. Guess what they said "she shouldn't have been half naked"...she was in her own house. It's so frustrating. And these same people critisize survivors for not coming forward. And these same people deny that there is a rape culture.

[Sonja]

I heard about people saying "why was she walking home alone at night?" about Jill Maher. People will always find a way to blame the woman. There was an article about a woman who was at home in her underwear when a man broke in and assaulted her. Guess what they said "she shouldn't have been half naked"...she was in her own house. It's so frustrating. And these same people critisize survivors for not coming forward. And these same people deny that there is a rape culture.

Re Jill maher though the only people who really said that weren't from inner city Melbourne. It's one of safest places I've ever felt. When we lived in north Fitzroy I'd regularly run from home to Brunswick at 10pm on a week night, or into the city. You never felt threatened. I think that's part of the reason so many felt confronted by what happened - it was all something so many of us have done before.

But yep when I did criminal law we studied juries and attitudes to rape victims. Fascinating and frightening.

[Tiny Dancer]

Sorry I should have been more clearer. I wasn't it a comparison to your situation it was a comparison to society siding with the victim. There have been numerous cases where a girl has dressed provocatively, flirted all night with verbal and non verbal communication, accepted drinks etc then willingly goes into a bathroom with a football player ( as an example), states yes at the time but then regrets her actions later and plays the victim. The media is to afraid to call it as it is in the fear they will be called victim blamers

Have you see the consent as asking if they want tea analogy?

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/28/this-n...liant-5466392/

Ok, so it isn't exactly like this, this is a very simplified analogy, but it works for the purposes. Say 2 people were sharing their teapots, and tea collection, discussing how wonderful another person's teapot looked and how they loved a good cup of tea, and extolling all the virtues of tea, and how wonderful high tea was, and so on and so forth. Would it then be right for one of those people to automatically assume that the other person wants tea, and force a cuppa on them? Yes, completely imperfect analogy, but I am sure you can work around the gaps and issues this analogy presents.

Even if consent is given, it can then be refused at any time.

Men are not prey to their "base instincts" any more than women are. In fact if a woman claimed the reason she raped a male was because he was walking around with skinny jeans/no shirt/a singlet/shorts, there is no way that would be viewed as an appropriate response, and the male would not in anyway be held accountable for walking around in whatever it was that he was wearing as a reason that he was raped.

Assault is about power and control. The view that the woman is somehow accountable for her assault also leads to issues with men being assaulted in terms of reporting and being believed, etc.

Just because a woman does not act or dress in the same manner as you does not mean she is "asking for it." Some people are naturally flirtatious. Some people are just naturally nice, or trying to not offend the person (I've seen men get cranky quite quickly when a woman who has literally done no more than smile and exchange polite pleasantries has refused a drink/dance/date). Accepting drinks/food/gifts does not mean that they want that to go any further. Some women dress for themselves (shocking thought I know). This is not about what the woman has "done," but why some men see that they have the right to react the way they do.

[VicPark]

men $lut shame as a way to exert control over women and keep them under the thumb.

True. And women have been known to use their sexuality as a means of gaining control. (Not saying that's what's happened here).

[VicPark]

By comparing a bull charging at a red flag with women having some accountability for others' reactions is ridiculous. Nothing, absolutely nothing, gives another person the right to assume permission based on the way a female (or male, but let's face it, majority of victim blaming is aimed at us) acts. Permission isn't based on assumptions; it's as clear as "yes".
.

In regards to physical touching I would agree with you.

As for having a gawk I don't necessarily think verbal permission is necessary. In the ops case I think 2 ladies taking risqué photos in public implies permission has been given to others present to have a gawk.
I think it's understandable and ok to make that assumption.

There is no victim blaming in this particular case as there was no victim or perpretrator. A couple of ladies put on a show and a couple of guys had a gawk. No one was hurt (apart from the OPs DH).

[ThreePeasPlease]

In regards to physical touching I would agree with you.

As for having a gawk I don't necessarily think verbal permission is necessary. In the ops case I think 2 ladies taking risqué photos in public implies permission has been given to others present to have a gawk.
I think it's understandable and ok to make that assumption.

There is no victim blaming in this particular case as there was no victim or perpretrator. A couple of ladies put on a show and a couple of guys had a gawk. No one was hurt (apart from the OPs DH).

I would have agreed with you if we were indeed 'putting on a show' but it was posing for photos, there was no show or putting on. Once those photos we taken we went back to talking to people. It was hardly a show.

[VicPark]

I would have agreed with you if we were indeed 'putting on a show' but it was posing for photos, there was no show or putting on. Once those photos we taken we went back to talking to people. It was hardly a show.

You may not have intended it to be a show however it was. Taking risqué photos in public, costumes, legs flying in the air, no doubt a heap of chatter and giggling going on. Regardless of the intent it was a show and that is why the dudes came and gawked.

[ThreePeasPlease]

You may not have intended it to be a show however it was. Taking risqué photos in public, costumes, legs flying in the air, no doubt a heap of chatter and giggling going on. Regardless of the intent it was a show and that is why the dudes came and gawked.

So are you saying that I am responsible for the way those men reacted and that my dp was well within his right to hold me responsible and accountable for the way those men acted out?

[Sonja]

So are you saying that I am responsible for the way those men reacted and that my dp was well within his right to hold me responsible and accountable for the way those men acted out?

I've only read your op and haven't seen the photos. Am I correct that all that happened was that a few guys said "she's wild" about your friend?

[VicPark]

So are you saying that I am responsible for the way those men reacted and that my dp was well within his right to hold me responsible and accountable for the way those men acted out?

Yes - at least 50% responsible. Unless there was additional factors not in the original post.

Not having a dig - been there, done that myself in the younger days (albeit not in German costume).