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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie2 View Post
    Majority succeed from what I see on here, and friends/family. Would like to have seen the first go first success IVFers represented.. Not that I am one of them, but there are alot around. Band together stand together I say. If you are doing IVF you are not poor..
    I disagree....When we were doing IVF we weren't bloody rich I can assure you!!

    We earned less than $70,000 combined and had to go through a full fee paying Clinic with no PHI. We went without and saved every cent we could. We quite literally sent ourselves broke to do it...i.e..spent every spare cent on IVF.

    There are plenty of people who were and are like us that do IVF Luv.
    Last edited by BlondeinBrisvegas; 30-05-2016 at 22:28.

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  3. #32
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    I found it really interesting.

    Confronting in parts, but interesting. Makes you put the mirror up to yourself a bit as an IVF patient, I think. (FWIW, I did 3 rounds of IUI and 2 rounds of IVF to end up with my DS, and I'm planning to go back for more IVF in the future to try for another.)

    I think part of the point of the program was to point out that most IVF clinics are profit-driven, which I think that sometimes you don't think about as a patient. At least one of the big IVF companies is publicly listed on the stock exchange. Their bottom line depends on number of cycles undertaken. A failed cycle usually means a repeat customer.

    What wasn't made clear (or not in the part I saw - missed the first 15 min or so) was whether there is an allegation that individual treating doctors may profit from the number of cycles undertaken - I suspect they do. Some may well be directors of the companies that run the clinics. Professional ethics would of course dictate that they do the best they can for the patients, every cycle - but there has to be a tension there, at the clinic or company level at least, between profit-driven decisions, and patient-driven decisions.

    A question raised too, is when professional ethics should say - no, your chances are too low, in my professional opinion, this treatment is futile, I won't provide any more treatment. I suspect very few doctors do this. And if they do, their patients go to the competition, because they want the treatment - and you (and I) can completely understand why patients don't want to stop until they feel they're ready.
    @J37, are you able to shed any light on the professional obligations of doctors with regard to treatment for patients where they consider treatment to be of little benefit, or futile? (Not talking about end of life treatment here, just general treatment.)

    An interesting point, I thought was the suggestion that some therapies were being offered as a way of differentiating one clinic from another - when there wasn't a strong evidence base that they worked. People desperate to have children will pay for small chances. There may come a point where that could be considered exploitative, when their chances of pregnancy are low.

    The head of the Australian Fertility Association (or whatever it's called) did not give a good interview. A lot of the questions put to him could have been better answered.

    Some of the patients interviewed did not seem as well informed as they could have been - why that is, who knows - poor information given, or did not want to hear it, etc. One couple thought that they'd only have to do one cycle and that would be it. It seems that some patients hadn't been given a realistic appraisal of their chances of a take home baby. Maybe they were - and chose not to hear it, who knows, maybe they weren't told at all.

    All in all, an interesting program, I thought.

    My prediction is that some time in the future, there will be a limit set on how many cycles of IVF people can undertake with Medicare funding, or an age limit will be imposed, as previous PM Howard proposed. Which is a worry... but I wonder if this program will kick off that discussion again.

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  5. #33
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    I think the fact that people didn't watch or turned it off when it had negative things to say about ivf proves to a degree that when we are in "hope" we sometimes don't even want to know the facts.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeinBrisvegas View Post
    I disagree....When we were doing IVF we weren't bloody rich I can assure you!!

    We earned less than $70,000 combined and had to go through a full fee paying Clinic with no PHI.

    There are plenty of people who were and are like us that do IVF Luv.
    I stand corrected. I am one of 5 kids who grew up in very low income (probably because of the 5 kids), and we scrambled for spare change for anything, so to me, if you have spare money you are rich. I shouldn't have said that.

    Look what happens when you assume! You make an a$$ of yourself!

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAT2561 View Post
    I think the fact that people didn't watch or turned it off when it had negative things to say about ivf proves to a degree that when we are in "hope" we sometimes don't even want to know the facts.
    Probably.. I turned off. I turned off as I have only today asked DH to reconsider a final round of IVF. So it was poor timing to put this on. I had a medical emergency during IVF so I may know more than most the risks of IVF. I respect those that watch and those that don't. I wouldn't judge either way.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie2 View Post
    Probably.. I turned off. I turned off as I have only today asked DH to reconsider a final round of IVF. So it was poor timing to put this on. I had a medical emergency during IVF so I may know more than most the risks of IVF. I respect those that watch and those that don't. I wouldn't judge either way.
    I wouldn't judge either. Just an interesting point that even if clinics put absolutely everything to us, hope is that thing that can't be measured or accounted for in logic but is so valuable to us that we might ignore what is presented anyhow. Science can't measure the value of hope!

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie2 View Post
    I stand corrected. I am one of 5 kids who grew up in very low income (probably because of the 5 kids), and we scrambled for spare change for anything, so to me, if you have spare money you are rich. I shouldn't have said that.

    Look what happens when you assume! You make an a$$ of yourself!
    That's ok Luv

    Mum always told me never to assume...You'd think I'd have learnt by now, but nope!! I still fruck up occasionally too

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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billie2 View Post
    Majority succeed from what I see on here, and friends/family. Would like to have seen the first go first success IVFers represented.. Not that I am one of them, but there are alot around. Band together stand together I say. If you are doing IVF you are not poor..
    We are a first cycle success story, but this still makes me angry as. Perhaps I'm lucky to be with a FS who explains things. Or maybe I'm clever enough to ask and under the right questions. Who knows.

    I was disappointed with the lack of representation of FS who had told patients there was nothing further they could do. Or any active FS. This was too anecdotal on the patient side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NAT2561 View Post
    I wouldn't judge either. Just an interesting point that even if clinics put absolutely everything to us, hope is that thing that can't be measured or accounted for in logic but is so valuable to us that we might ignore what is presented anyhow. Science can't measure the value of hope!
    So true. What science can measure though is the effectiveness of particular treatments. And what maths can show is the number of treatment cycles to the number of live births. And that's sometimes information that patients aren't necessarily always given, and sometimes information that they might not want to hear, or might not affect their decision making anyway.

    A question that might be raised though is to what extent clinics should allow treatments to be provided where the evidence isn't there, or public funds should be spent where the chances are low. I'm not advocating for a limit, or a restriction - simply saying that those questions do arise.

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    I found it overly emotive and not that strong in information. I felt like it was done by someone who has no idea about IVF so it all seems big and scary. In reality, if I'm spending $10k to do a cycle and I've had failed cycles in the past, why wouldn't I try something different? Like steroids? Maybe it will help, maybe not. It's my body, it's not going to kill me.

    My family and I were talking that the one whose sister told her to stop clearly had young kids but mustn't have offered to donate eggs.

    My theory is everyone can have a baby, it's just a matter if you can afford to. Maybe you will need donor eggs, donor sperm and a surrogate, which don't come cheap.

    As for not being told the statistics it's EVERYWHERE! All through the clinics! And I've been to 3 of them. I feel like they don't want you if you're old as you're going to blow their precious statistics. It's not the number of cycles you get through a clinic, it's the number of live births which is the aim.

    And I believe everyone, regardless of the statistics, goes in thinking they will get pregnant first go. I've seen it time and time again. I thought that way and I actually did. Now I realise I was just damn lucky.

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