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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Of course there is a line. Just because i believe "well, thats the punishment in that country" doesnt mean i agree with it, just that those are the rules and theres nothing we can do to change it besides avoid ending up in that position.
    Resigning ourselves to this conclusion would mean there is nothing we can do about it. Fortunately this is not the case, there are meetings tomorrow to plead for clemency. There are no foregone conclusions. The fact that they have not yet been executed is testament to the fact that Indonesia does seem to apply their rules in a hard and fast manner.

    I guess also that part of the issue is the inconsistency of how those rules are applied.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Of course there is a line. Just because i believe "well, thats the punishment in that country" doesnt mean i agree with it, just that those are the rules and theres nothing we can do to change it besides avoid ending up in that position.
    I do definitely get what you're saying. I think am struggling to get my point across properly. I mean... To me that sort of comment (and I don't mean yours specifically) comes across as lacking any kind of sympathy for the people involved.

    Rationally I can make the connection between the fact that they took a risk, made a bad decision, knew what the consequences were, all of that stuff. They broke the law, and I believe when you break the law there is a consequence.

    But then I picture them sitting in that place, knowing that any minute now they are going to be told they have three days to live. All the good they have brought into the world in the past ten years will be effectively negated. They will be led off somewhere. Blindfolded. Their hearts will be pounding out of their chests. They will be terrified. Their family members will be broken. It makes me panicky just thinking about it.

    And I find it hard to just say 'do the crime do the time' when I think about that sort of thing. I find it hard to hear those words and worse coming from others about fellow human beings...

    I'm not directing any of this at you by quoting you btw, and I thank you for your comments on this thread which have been very articulate and illuminating to me.

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  5. #43
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    I personally don't support the death penalty for this, but I do support a very long jail sentence. Corby had pot. These guys had heroin, which kills people and destroys families. IMO she was no where in the league of these guys. I do support the death penalty for a minority of crimes. Serial killers, rapists and child molesters come to mind.

    As to rehabilitation. I fully believe in a human's ability to change, and for this crime I do believe they could be rehabilitated. But for the above crimes, hell no. There is no coming back from that stuff and statistics show rehabilitation rates for pedophiles is appallingly low.

    If I had some power in this, I would bring them back to Australia to serve a decent sentence (10+ years) where they can actually have programs to understand their behaviour, possibly deal with their own addiction and develop responsibility, empathy and regret for their crime. Leaving them to rot in some filthy jail is almost as bad as the death penalty.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    I guess also that part of the issue is the inconsistency of how those rules are applied.
    Yes, but at the end of the day Indonesia is a developing country. Not every culture values human life the same.

    They are well within their rights to say "My house my rules".

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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Yes, but at the end of the day Indonesia is a developing country. Not every culture values human life the same.

    They are well within their rights to say "My house my rules".
    Yes I get that and I'm not disagreeing that they are not within their rights to do whatever they like according to their rules. I'm just hoping that for Andrew and Myurans sakes that they can provide the same sort of mercy that they have done for their own criminals and not use their lives in some sort of political power play.

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome Queen of Amazingtown View Post
    But then I picture them sitting in that place, knowing that any minute now they are going to be told they have three days to live. All the good they have brought into the world in the past ten years will be effectively negated. They will be led off somewhere. Blindfolded. Their hearts will be pounding out of their chests. They will be terrified. Their family members will be broken. It makes me panicky just thinking about it.
    I totally get this. I could not agree more. Emotionally this is gut wrenching. Logically i have no sympathy, if you know what i mean :what: It makes me sound like a monster i know, i just find it harder to deal with when innocent people die in war ie the beheadings then as a direct result of their own actions.

    I will admit i am possibly a bit desensitized to these issues though due to my work.

  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Yes, but at the end of the day Indonesia is a developing country. Not every culture values human life the same.

    They are well within their rights to say "My house my rules".
    Does the same apply to countries whose rules include stoning women to death for adultery when they've been raped? What about countries who allow fathers to marry off their young daughters? Is it okay because it's their rules in their house?

    We have an obligation to call out other countries (and indeed our own country) on any rules or behaviours or practices that don't place appropriate value on human rights. And that includes the death penalty.

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  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Yes, but at the end of the day Indonesia is a developing country. Not every culture values human life the same.

    They are well within their rights to say "My house my rules".
    No they're not. That why we have many human rights organizations around the world, working to raise the standard of what humans should and shouldn't be able to do to each other. It is acceptable and IMO necessary for this sort of behavior in any country, developing or developed, to be called out, criticized, and put on the world stage where we can say no, this is just not on.

    The death penalty is abhorrent. End of story.
    Last edited by Moxy; 15-02-2015 at 19:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
    Does the same apply to countries whose rules include stoning women to death for adultery when they've been raped? What about countries who allow fathers to marry off their young daughters? Is it okay because it's their rules in their house?

    We have an obligation to call out other countries (and indeed our own country) on any rules or behaviours or practices that don't place appropriate value on human rights. And that includes the death penalty.
    If you go back to post #39 you will see this has already been answered. Im not requoting myself again.

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
    No they're not. That why we have the UN, UNICEF, and many global human rights organizations around the world, working to raise the standard of what humans should and shouldn't be able to do to each other. It is acceptable and IMO necessary for this sort of behavior in any country, developing or developed, to be called out, criticized, and put on the world stage where we can say no, this is just not on.

    The death penalty is abhorrent. End of story.
    You are 100% right and I take back what I just posted before.

    I understand the argument of their country, their rules but it's not justified. At all.

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