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11-08-2014 10:29 #31
11-08-2014 10:40 #32
My comments are more in general to the 1st article.
Firstly, I don't have any qualifications in immunology/vaccinations/medicine nor can I say I am especially researched in that area so I am not in a position to critique that aspect of the article.
The first thing that stood out for me is that there is not a single reference in the article. The author has included assertions and figures with not a single reference as to where or how he has sourced this information. The article immediately loses all credibility at this point because for all we know, the figures are made up.
In regard to the statements regarding more states, state legislature and/or courts 'forcing' vaccination - I would be interested for him to define what he means by 'forcing' and the circumstances and motivations in each case.
With reference to the duration a vaccination is effective, many vaccinations have only been available in the last 50 or so years. Medical science has undergone a boom in the that period with the knowledge growing exponentially. One of the beauties of science is that it aims to be self-correcting, it is always improving, always learning more. For example, he states that,
"When I was a medical student almost 40 years ago, it was taught that the tetanus vaccine would last a lifetime. Then 30 years after it had been mandated, we discovered that its protection lasted no more than 10 years."
In regard to herd immunity, I can't quote the precise figures experts say are required to keep a disease at bay but I think herd immunity as removing an organism's environment. If we removed all the gum trees in Australia (or at least genetically modified them so they didn't grow leaves but still grew) then koalas would have no where to live and bread so they too would die out. It's probably a very clumsy analogy but that's how I think of it.
Last edited by Busy-Bee; 11-08-2014 at 13:20.
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11-08-2014 10:40 #33
What happened to the disease known as Black Death? Do some diseases just go away? Genuine question.
I'm really not interested in debating this topic but I have to say I find it kinda obsolete to keep saying would you take your unvaxxed kid to a third world country. Um no I have no desire to go to a 3rd world country really. The sanitation issues in those places are why diseases are so rampant. I don't see how it can be comparable.
If you want to believe vax works you have to keep getting them and in reality, people are not. So I don't know how herd immunity can be fail proof, just from general observation.
Obviously it's not anyway because vaxxed people still contract the diseases. That's a fact.
also just curious if the researcher types here can get any info on how much cancer and other chronic disease has risen in first world countries since all the vax started and if there's any correlation? I'm curious. As well how much cancer etc is in the third world countries? Are we trading one disease for another?
What I don't like about vaccination is that it's a blanket treatment. One shot fits all people but the reality is it may do something different to everyone.
I don't know any adults who are regularly vaccinated, only my mil gets flu shots because of her work.
my mind boggles at how this is all supposed to be working.
Last edited by Bluebirdgirl; 11-08-2014 at 10:47.
11-08-2014 10:45 #34
11-08-2014 10:46 #35
Black death was around when there was no sanitation and rats (which carried the disease) were rampant. Living conditions were also appalling for most and there was no understanding of microorganisms or basic hygiene. This is unlike the 50s and 60s where polio was rampant despite modern sanitation and hygiene practices (I know because I have talked to my mother about this who lived in south London at the time through many polio outbreaks and saw friends in iron lungs and forever disabled by polio.
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11-08-2014 10:53 #36
No offence but I don't think the sanitation in the 40s/50s/60s was even that great, from how my mother tells me she grew up in an average australian home in that period.
It seems that a lot of the disease comes down to sanitation.
Does anyone actually change their mind about things from posts like this? I know I switched camps so to speak but I was never particularly passionate so was open to suggestion.
If my family and myself have been living off some herd immunity, then thanks
Im not injecting any of us with things I don't understand.
11-08-2014 11:05 #37
Surely if we were so good at sanitation then gastro would be much less of a problem too.
ETA: And the common cold.
Last edited by Busy-Bee; 11-08-2014 at 11:07.
11-08-2014 11:06 #38
There's also no vaccination for Ebola either, correct?
Is that a fact or observation that people are living longer because of vaccination? I would have thought it was to do with a lot of other medical advances and that vaccination would be a small part if at all.
11-08-2014 11:08 #39
There is much more to illness and transmission than sanitation. Yes, some illnesses like Typhus etc are from dirty conditions. But polio, WC, CP aren't. Many of those illnesses are airborne and have nothing to do with sanitation.
11-08-2014 11:12 #40Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
I am flabbergasted that we are still "debating this" in 2014. Genuinely incredulous. For me, it's a bit like asking "Is the world really round?".
However, I realise that not everyone understands immunology and the very complex pathophysiology of infectious disease. It is very complex. But quite honestly...I think it is truly wonderful, and has done SO much for the health and longevity of modern man. I think that is marvellous
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