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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambjam View Post
    I think perhaps people confuse exactly what being pro-choice entails.

    It dictates that a woman has the right to terminate a *pregnancy*, yes? To evict a foetus from her body, because it's her body and she should be able to choose what she does with it.

    It does not necessarily follow that she should be allowed to choose the fate of that foetus. So... If a woman is 30 weeks pregnant, a pro-choice stance could allow her to induce labour, but not to kill the foetus or to deny it medical assistance after birth.

    As for how this logic applies to the OP, a 19 week old foetus cannot live outside the womb, therefore if I'm to be pro-choice I have to respect that not all choices will sit well with me :/
    I do agree that once that baby is outside of her body, she has no rights to kill it. I think she has the right to induce prematurely, but if it DOESN'T die from that, then that's too bad. She had the choice about her body. That part is done. Once she's got a living being seperate from her own body, she has no right to just go, "yep, kill it." Anymore than I have with my daughter today.

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  3. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    I believe the mother's life should ALWAYS take precedence over an unborn baby in the eyes of the law.

    You know what happens when that isn't the case? Women are imprisoned for their birth choices if someone else deems that those choices MAY be detrimental to the baby (and this is all a matter of opinion - nobody can foresee the future, so whether or not it's harmful or not can only be seen after it's already happened).

    A woman is not an incubator, and she should never ever be treated like one.

    Because a baby is INSIDE a woman, because it relies on her to continue living, then there is no way that BOTH can have equal rights. So... one has to lose some rights in order for the other to be given rights. If we take away the rights of a pregnant mother in preference of her baby, what we're saying is that women are lesser if they fall pregnant... because we are stripping them of rights they otherwise had to their own body, just because they have a baby in there. We're saying pregnant women do not deserve the same rights as anyone else has to their own bodies. That, to me, is revolting.

    It would be nice if we could grant rights to the unborn, but the only way to do that is to decide that a grown, existing woman is worth less than it is... and that's never going to be okay. It makes women little more than incubators.

    The MOMENT that baby takes its first breath, it gets all the rights in the world... but until that point, it is inside another's body, and the owner of that body deserves to decide what happens with it.

    Don't think for a second that this means I am happy when I hear of late-term abortions, "just because." I don't understand it. I don't understand why anyone would just go, "yeah, I'd rather not after all actually..." and abort at that stage. There are instances where it makes sense - medical issues with either mother or baby, severe circumstances, etc. But mostly, to me, if you're having a late term abortion, you're still having to have that baby removed from your body... so you still need to give birth to it, so why not just give birth to it and give it away to someone who wants it? If it can survive outside of the uterus and you're going to have to give birth to it anyway, I don't understand why people wouldn't do that instead... but I'm NOT someone who has ever considered a late-term abortion. I haven't experienced the things others have. I don't have their ethics and morals and values. Therefore, I acknowledge that while it makes no sense to me, and I believe there's a better alternative, not everyone is me, with my way of thinking... and expecting everyone to live according to what I deem acceptable is just as stupid as everyone living according to the way the Westborough Baptist Church deems acceptable, the way Sharia Law deems acceptable, the way oppressive China deems acceptable.

    It's not really my place to tell everyone how they should live, and what they should do with their bodies, regardless of how I feel on the matter... and likewise I don't want anyone else thinking they have the right to decide what I do with my own uterus or its contents either.

    And it is so very hard to talk about when life "begins," especially when you're talking with women who have lost babies. There's no way you can say, "life before birth doesn't matter," when you've seen women's hearts break for going through a miscarriage, or having a stillbirth. To me it's not about that... when or not life actually begins. It's about the fact that for the unborn to have all these rights, then the pregnant woman has to lose rights that she would otherwise have (the right to make decisions regarding her own body and its contents) at any other stage in her life.

    It's just never going to be something I think is right or fair or just... so instead, I acknowledge that women are going to use the pro-choice sentiment to do horrific things to their bodies, to the contents of their bodies... but that this stance is still important regardless, because without it, we have condemned many women who WOULDN'T do things even staunch pro-choicers would feel sick at the thought of... there are so many more women who use abortions "properly," (for want of a better word) than there are who abuse the right by doing things most others would call heinous.
    This is what I have been trying and failing to articulate 100%.

  4. #243
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    Every single thing that Sassy said. Awesome posts!

  5. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by mama and her little bear View Post
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_...n_of_pregnancy

    As far as I know in abortion (not induction) the baby isn't given a chance to try and survive
    Thanks. I actually think I may bow out of this thread now. I am finding the discussion interesting but all the late term discussion and a part of a post earlier in the day are putting images in my head I'm having a hard time with.

    Thanks for the great discussion though ladies.

  6. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinSparkles View Post
    This is what I have been trying and failing to articulate 100%.
    You've articulated it fine. I've realised I don't agree with it (after a certain point and for non medical reasons). We don't allow women currently to terminate beyond a certain point in time and the balance seems to work. I can't agree with the position stated by you and sassy and I don't believe the drastic consequences outlined occur because women aren't allowed to terminate up to birth.

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  8. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    Thanks. I actually think I may bow out of this thread now. I am finding the discussion interesting but all the late term discussion and a part of a post earlier in the day are putting images in my head I'm having a hard time with.

    Thanks for the great discussion though ladies.
    Yeah I think I'm out too. I have enjoyed the education.

  9. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirst33 View Post
    I'm just confused as to if you can even 'abort' a healthy baby that is old enough to live outside your body? Once you reach a certain gestation your only choice is to be induced or a c-section, so if the baby is healthy enough and old enough to live outside the mothers body then it would survive the birth and be born alive... And then if the mother didn't want it she would sign over her rights??? How can you abort a baby that is old enough and healthy enough to live outside you? I am sure a dr has a responsibility to protect the baby's life at that point? Am I being naive?
    the babies life is terminated before it is able to take a breath, either with partial birth, lethal cardic injection when the baby ids in utero, before labour has begun, or with a D & E (which I won't describe not to cause offence but it is awful to imagine it happening to a viable baby). Again we prefer to be ignorant to what actually goes on - but the only way for a healthy viable baby to be aborted is for its life to be artificially terminated by the doctor (as I already explained earlier).

  10. #248
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    Yep said my piece and reading everyone's opinions and stances has been enlightening I'm going to bid farewell to this thread now


    Sent from a magical mobile bubhub device in a galaxy far far away

  11. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by mama and her little bear View Post
    I think people get confused because in medically required termination the common method is early induction and then allowing baby to pass on it's own
    I think you're right, and people would rather not know what actually happens to a viable baby that is terminated late term because it is too distressing to hear the truth. I find it sad that we a a society would support something we have little or no knowledge of - how can you be pro choice for a late term abortion if you have no idea of how that abortion actually occurs? Some people have no idea How the babies life is terminated when induced labour would mean that they would survive and it would be an unsuccessful abortion, so the dr needs to take measures to ensure that a healthy baby is no longer so. Google abortion procedures, even google image it, and then come back and say that you are 100% pro choice.

  12. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyMummy View Post
    Being truly pro-choice means that you have to seriously believe that everyone deserves to make their own choices... even if you think those choices are absolutely revolting.

    The alternative is for someone to put their own morals and ethics on another person's uterus... and to me, that's not cool, because while those morals and ethics might seem reasonable to some, they're not to everyone. I mean, who gets to decide what's "reasonable," and what's not? To some, unreasonable is ANY sort of abortion. To others, it's abortion other than those for medical reasons or rape.
    The thing is, by extension, people cannot always be relied upon to make moral and ethical decisions.

    If Bob thinks its reasonable to kill Pete, because he (for instance) killed Bob's loved one, he's still not allowed to do that.

    If Bob thinks its perfectly fine and ok to steal grapes from Woolworths because their bottom line can handle it, they always throw away 2% of the produce anyway, it's still not okay.

    As humans, we don't share a universal moral or ethical code. We generally agree that murder, theft etc aren't right, but there's a lot of gray area from person to person. So that's why I think laws and conditions are placed on things.

    In the end, I think what most people ere are discovering right now is that this is not a topic everyone can and should agree with. It's a really emotive topic, and I know for sure that no amount of logic, reason etc will make me able to 'un-feel' that a baby has rights. And just as some say a woman's rights shouldn't be made less because she's pregnant and shouldn't be impeded upon by a fetus, I passionately feel that as humans, and as the child bearers, we have a responsibility to protect the rights of unborn babies until they can take up their own fight for themselves.

    I am glad that we live where people don't have to seek backyard abortions. That's for damn sure!

    I also find my own opinion quite contradictory, because I really don't have any problem at all with abortion before 12 weeks. I am all fuzzy on abortions from 12-18 weeks, and from 18 weeks on, hearing of abortions makes me flinch internally.

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