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  1. #71
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    Default Why is it not ok for there to be winners and losers?

    Quote Originally Posted by babycart View Post
    I used to explain to our graduates that when it came to performance review time, that getting a "3" was good (performing at expected levels, meeting basic goals etc). I explained that we (the company) didn't employ them to be "average" or even "satisfactory" we employed them because We expected them to work hard and do a good job.

    Some of them took it better than others and some of them even managed to perform above expectations and get a "2" rating ("1" was the best).
    Yep I have to have this conversation with employees a LOT!

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    I have not read all of the replies but I do agree with the OP. I believe we are setting our kids up for a big fall when they enter the real world and realise there will not be rewards for good behaviour, or even doing your job. I very rarely reward my kids behaviour, because to me and to society, they are doing what is expected of them. If they were going above and beyond what was asked of them, then they get rewarded.

    I just enrolled my 6 year old DD in soccer for the first time this year. My main aim is to teach her about playing in a team, winning AND losing. Basically, what to do when one fails. Very few people go through life without failing and I want to teach them if you fail, then you just have to work harder.

    In terms of working, most employers do reward hard and improved work, through promotions/salary increases. But they most certainly do not reward for just doing your job or not doing anything at all.

    We should be teaching our kids that we don't win all the time and sometimes great lessons can be learned from losing. That we shouldn't sit down and feel sorry for ourselves but to get back up and to try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babycart View Post
    I used to explain to our graduates that when it came to performance review time, that getting a "3" was good (performing at expected levels, meeting basic goals etc). I explained that we (the company) didn't employ them to be "average" or even "satisfactory" we employed them because We expected them to work hard and do a good job.

    Some of them took it better than others and some of them even managed to perform above expectations and get a "2" rating ("1" was the best).
    Is this the same as winning and losing though in the same sense as the OP?

    I will be teaching DS that if he wants a specific job he has to do the absolute best he can study-wise and career-wise to get it. I wouldn't consider it 'losing' if he doesn't pass a text, for example. And certainly NOT to win or to make others lose, but to get what he wants in life.

    I'm not afraid of hard work, or teaching DS good work ethics. I AM afraid he will have a highly competitive streak and it is a very unattractive quality and a lot of people really dislike it and I think it could make for a very unhappy life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babycart View Post
    I used to explain to our graduates that when it came to performance review time, that getting a "3" was good (performing at expected levels, meeting basic goals etc). I explained that we (the company) didn't employ them to be "average" or even "satisfactory" we employed them because We expected them to work hard and do a good job.

    Some of them took it better than others and some of them even managed to perform above expectations and get a "2" rating ("1" was the best).
    Woah! well that kind of system/workplace ethic would never sit well with me - I would find it highly patronising to be honest and wouldn't want to work for the company. No wonder I haven't been overly successful career-wise! But honestly I feel much more encouraged when my good skills are noticed at work... The things I recall about the better managers Ive had is that they noticed my string points and pointed them out to me - it made me want to be better at my job. I don't need a future employer to tell me to work hard and well, I would do it anyway that's why I'm there!

    I think the issue I have with reward in this world is that we tend to reward certain things and behaviours and ignore (or even berate) others. You don't often see trophies at someone's house apart from sporting ones. Since when is sporting ability more important than everything else in life?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benji View Post
    I AM afraid he will have a highly competitive streak and it is a very unattractive quality and a lot of people really dislike it and I think it could make for a very unhappy life.
    This is exactly the type of person you see in law all the time (male and female). People who have excelled at school / uni and constantly heard how great they are and then go into the workplace and are nightmares to work with . I've worked in offices where we had to lock our doors at night so other people didn't go through your files, lawyers so overworked they collapsed but wouldn't share the work around as it made them look weak or worse people who undermined you and white ant you if you succeed.

    I don't want this world for my kids. People like this are becoming less common (thankfully) but the change is slow. It's going to take a whole new generation of kids growing up to have a different approach to working and hopefully we can be the change our children need (well in my utopian world anyway )

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    Default Why is it not ok for there to be winners and losers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Benji View Post
    Is this the same as winning and losing though in the same sense as the OP?

    I will be teaching DS that if he wants a specific job he has to do the absolute best he can study-wise and career-wise to get it. I wouldn't consider it 'losing' if he doesn't pass a text, for example. And certainly NOT to win or to make others lose, but to get what he wants in life.

    I'm not afraid of hard work, or teaching DS good work ethics. I AM afraid he will have a highly competitive streak and it is a very unattractive quality and a lot of people really dislike it and I think it could make for a very unhappy life.
    No, this isn't about "winning" and "losing" but about the expectation of being overly rewarded and praised for doing nothing extraordinary.

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    Default Why is it not ok for there to be winners and losers?

    Quote Originally Posted by MeetTheBluths View Post
    Woah! well that kind of system/workplace ethic would never sit well with me - I would find it highly patronising to be honest and wouldn't want to work for the company. No wonder I haven't been overly successful career-wise! But honestly I feel much more encouraged when my good skills are noticed at work... The things I recall about the better managers Ive had is that they noticed my string points and pointed them out to me - it made me want to be better at my job. I don't need a future employer to tell me to work hard and well, I would do it anyway that's why I'm there!

    I think the issue I have with reward in this world is that we tend to reward certain things and behaviours and ignore (or even berate) others. You don't often see trophies at someone's house apart from sporting ones. Since when is sporting ability more important than everything else in life?!
    This company never hid that it was a results oriented culture and this is why "cultural fit" is important in the recruitment process. **not saying we had a perfect organisational culture, but there was no point in sugar coating it.

    We also coached both managers and employees that performance discussions needed to happen frequently (ie there should be no surprises at review time) and for managers to 'catch people doing the right thing', to acknowledge improvement, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by missie_mack View Post
    But by the OPs definition only winning and losing should be recognised, so by this definition people doing the right thing shouldn't be acknowledged (ie participating) and instead only acknowledging and rewarding those who excel and ignoring or punishing those who lose.
    It's not really the same thing. What babycart is describing is common in most professional services industries and is part of the performance review process - it's more like a child's report card at school then winning or losing a race. If you are graded less than 3 you need to work harder and if you are above 3 you're on the right track and "should" get higher remuneration (in the olden days anyways).

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    Default Why is it not ok for there to be winners and losers?

    Quote Originally Posted by missie_mack View Post
    But by the OPs definition only winning and losing should be recognised, so by this definition people doing the right thing shouldn't be acknowledged (ie participating) and instead only acknowledging and rewarding those who excel and ignoring or punishing those who lose.
    Our 'winners' did get recognised - good ratings and bigger pay increases.

    Our 'losers' (consistently performing below expectations despite training, extra help etc) were also recognised/punished - they got poor ratings, no pay increases and in extreme cases fired.
    ETA ****before anyone misconstrues this, this is for ."adults" not children. By no means am I suggesting "firing" children from board games or from running races****


    The OP didn't say she wanted an "all OR nothing approach"......she said she didn't want an "all FOR nothing" approach
    Last edited by babycart; 13-02-2013 at 15:55.

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