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  1. #31
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    Default Greens and Hamas

    I don't know anyone who actually blindly agrees with every policy a political party has!

  2. #32
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    Default Greens and Hamas

    Have been following this thread.

    Father, you don't seem to want an info, your mind is clearly made up as far as who is "right" in this war. You just want to know why the greens support Hamas. Yet the article you linked doesn't say they do, just that they want to lay more responsibility on Israel, who have more weapons and economic strength than Palestine. If you feel the greens are acting out of character, then you are best to contact them directly. I don't know that Christine Milne is a bh member, or any other senior Greens, but they'd be the best people to explain their position.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Atropos For This Useful Post:

    misskittyfantastico  (29-11-2012)

  4. #33
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    Here is a press release the Greens issued in which they called on both Israel and Hamas to lay down their arms.


    If the Fatah spokesperson in the link Father provided was articulating official Fatah policy, then I stand corrected on Fatah recognising Israel's right to exist. However, regarding Israel's right to exist, I believe that should depend on what is meant by "right to exist". Does Israel's right to exist mean forfeiting the Palestinian refugees' right of return? Denying Palestinian refugees compensation for stolen property? Continuing Israel's systematic discrimination against its Gentile citizens? Accepting the Israeli settlements? If the answer to any of thes questions is "yes", then I don't think the Palestinians should accept Israel's "right to exist".

    Here are some excerpts from John Pilger's book Freedom Next Time. The excerpts are from the chapter The Last Taboo, which is about the plight of the Palestinians:

    In 2002, her [Israeli journalist Amira Haas] book, Drinking the Sea at Gaza: Days and Nights in a Land under Siege, inspired me to return to Palestine and make a sequel to my 1974 documentary film, Palestine Is Still The Issue. I phoned her from London; she was in Ramallah, covering "Operation Defensive Shield", Ariel Sharon's frontal attack on the West Bank towns in March and April of that year. We conducted our conversation as she crouched on the floor of a house with gunfire in the background.

    "If I go out, the army will kill me," she said.

    "But you're an Israeli."

    "Makes no difference. Everybody here is a target."

    I arrived in the West Bank soon afterwards. The Israeli army had just attacked the refugee camp at Jenin, using fifty tanks, armoured bulldozers, helicopter gunships and F-16 fighter-bombers. Every day for a week, the F-16s had fired an average of 250 missiles against less than one square mile of shacks housing fifteen thousand people, half of them children. Fifty-four people were killed and hundreds wounded. The camp was defended by a few dozen men armed with rifles and crude booby traps. They killed twenty-three Israeli soldiers. This resistance, and its bloody cost for the invading army, sent Sharon into a fury. Describing the defenders are "terrorists", he approved the demolition of the homes of four thousand people, some with occupants inside.

    Thousands of Palestinian men were rounded up and effectively kidnapped. Many Palestinians, according to Amnesty International, are "systematically tortured" {4}. Israel, says Amnesty, "is the only country on earth where torture and ill-treatment are legally sanctioned". In Jenin, the homeless were again made homeless: for some of the elderly, it was the fifth time since the Nakbah, the "catastrophe" of the establishment of Israel on May 14, 1948. There was little food and water, and no power and emergency medical help; foreign volunteers who tried to enter Jenin were fired at; Iain Hook, a 54-year-old Briton with UNRWA, was shot in the back and bled to death while the ambulance carrying him was delayed by the Israeli army.

    In the Israeli media, there was outrage at accusations abroad of a massacre. The London correspondent of Ha'aretz wrote to the Guardian to complain, and definitions of "massacre" were debated in the letters columns. That civililans were killed in cold blood, including children murdered by military snipers and a severely disabled man crushed in his home by a bulldozer despite a warning that he was inside (see page 75), was not debated. Such detail was too atrocious even for those whose reflex defence of Israel was once regarded as irrefutable.

    While General Sharon's stated aim in attacking the West Bank was to "smash the infrastructure of terror", his real aim was to mark indelibly the perimeters of his apartheid state and its colony. Would Jenin prove his undoing? For a moment, it seemed the "international community" would stand up to Israel. In Geneva, the United Nations Commission on Human Rights began taking evidence; the first witness was the representative of Amnesty International, speaking with a public anger normally eschewed by that organisation.

    "Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions," he said, "have been committed daily, hourly, even every minute, by the Israeli authorities against Palestinians. Israeli forces have consistently carried out killings when no lives were in danger. More than 600 Palestinian homes have been systematically demolished, making thousands homeless, the vast majority children ... Amnesty delegates investigated the Israeli army's recent attacks on towns, including refugee camps. In each instance tanks had entered the area, rolling over cars, running over walls, breaking down house and shop fronts ... Heavy fire was used against densely-populated residentail areas .. electricity, water and telephones [were] cut off ... In treatment apparently intended to hurt and degrade the population, Israeli soldiers who occupied apartments had systematically trashed them. [Troops] killed six medical aid workers, including two doctors. Ambulances, including those of the ICRC [International Committee of the Red Cross] have been consistently shot at."

    He called for "an end to the paralysis of the international community" in protecting lives in Palestine. {5}

    The UN body, representing fifty-three governments, condemned Israel for "mass killings" of Palestinians and "gross violations" of humanitarian law, and affirmed the "legitimate right of Palestinian people to resist". This resolution was passed by forty votes to five, with seven states abstaining; most European Union states voted in favour. {6}
    In May and July 2001, the authoritative Jane's Foreign Report disclosed that Britain and France had given Israel "the green light" to attack the West Bank. The Blair government was shown a top-secret plan for an all-out invasion and reoccupation of both the West Bank and Gaza, which were then administered by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority under Israeli sufferance. The plan was to use "the latest F-16 and F-15 jets against all the main installations of the Palestinian Authority [and] 30,000 men or the equivalent of a full army". However, this plan needed "the trigger" of a suicide bombing which would cause "numerous deaths and injuries [because] the 'revenge' factor is crucial". This "would motivate Israeli soldiers to demolish the Palestinians". {7}

    What had alarmed Sharon and his inner circle, notably the author of the plan, Brigadier-General Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was a secret agreement between Arafat and Hamas, the Islamic organisation responsible for numerous suicide attacks, that these attacks should stop. Following September 11, 2001, Sharon and the Likud regime worried that a Middle East "solution" would be a by-product of America's newly-minted "war on terror", especially when George W. Bush blurted out a non sequitir that he had always backed the "dream" of a Palestinian state. Something had to be done.

    On November 23, 2001, Israeli agents assassinated the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud. Twelve days later, the inevitable response came in co-ordinated suicide attacks against Israel. "Whoever decided upon the liquidation of Abu Hunud knew in advance that would be the price," wrote Alex Fishman, the well-connected intelligence writer of the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot. "Whoever gave a green light to this act knew full well that he was thereby shattering in one blow the gentleman's agreement between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority [which was] not to play into Israel's hands by mass attacks on its population centers." {8}

    On cue, within weeks the Israeli army attacked the Occupied Territories with unprecedented force. For Mofaz, who knew Arafat was striving for a negotiated settlement, this "victory" would avenge what he saw as Israel's shameful withdrawal from Lebanon. {9} The result was all but the destruction of the Palestinian Authority and Arafat's political base. The Bush regime issued the usual anodyne statement about "ending violence" and placed the responsibility squarely on Arafat. "Peacemaker" [Tony] Blair said nothing.

    The result was brutal. When the UN Middle East envoy, Terje Roed-Larsen, was finally allowed into Jenin by the Israelis, he described what he saw as "a sad and disgraceful chapter in Israel's history". He said the Israeli army had prevented humanitarian aid, including food convoys, from entering the camp. Along with the foreign ministers of four European governments, he demanded an international investigation. {10}
    Amnesty International published what it described as its most thorough investigation anywhere. Extraordinarily, the human rights organisation called on governments that were signatories to the Geneva Conventions to put on trial Israeli soldiers "responsible for war crimes" in Jenin. These were: unlawful killings, using civilians as human shields, blocking medical help to the wounded, the torture of prisoners, and the wanton destruction of four thousand homes in which many died as they were bulldozed.

    The case of Jamal Fayed, a 38-year-old severely disabled man, was cited. His family, said Amnesty, "had shown [his] ID to the soldiers, who were preparing to demolish the house, to prove he was paralysed and could not get out of the home without their help. The soldiers refused to help and soon afterwards a bulldozer approached the house. The family yelled at the driver to stop. He didn't, and Jamal Fayed, still trapped inside, was killed."

    Amnesty also described how two boys, aged six and twelve, were killed by Israeli tank fire as they went to buy sweets after the army had announced the curfew had been lifted. The Israeli government ignored Amnesty, just as it had dismissed the United Nations. {11}
    In 1953 [Ariel] Sharon commanded Unit 101 of the Israeli army, whose "mission" was to "carry out special reprisals across the state's borders". Its first operation, in August 1953, killed twenty refugees in Bureij camp, Gaza, including seven women and five children. On the night of October 14, Sharon laid seige to the village of Qibya. His orders from Central Command were "to attack and temporarily to occupy the village, carry out destruction and maximum killing, in order to drive out the inhabitants of the village from their homes". He passed this on to his men with the words "Objective: to attack the village of Kibiya [sic], occupy it and cause maximal damage to life and property, signed Major Ariel Sharon." The emphasis in the original document is his. Sixty-nine civilians were killed, of whom the majority were women and children. As a result. the UN Security Council voted to record the "strongest censure" of Israel. {22}
    Here are the end notes:

    {4} Amnesty International press release, AI Index MDE: “Torture Still Used Systematically as Israel Presents its Report to the Committee Against Torture”, May 15, 1998
    {5} Amnesty International press release, AI Index MDE 15/027/2002, News Service no. 56, April 2, 2002
    {6} British notes to the UNCHR via author’s communications with UN delegates; see also Morning Star, April 16, 2002
    Last edited by nasalhaironfire; 29-11-2012 at 17:32.

  5. #34
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    Here are excerpts from Norman G. Finkelstein's book Beyond Chutzpah - On The Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History.

    During the early weeks of the second intifada (beginning in September 2000), the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed was 20:1, with the over-whelming majority of Palestinians "killed in demonstrations in circumstances when the lives of members of the [Israeli] security forces were not in danger" (Amnesty International) {1} For the second intifada from September 2000 through November 2003, B'Tselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) reports the following data:

    "2,236 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, including 428 minors.

    "32 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories, including three minors.

    "48 Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces within Israel, including one minor.

    "Total = 2,316

    "196 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, including 30 minors.

    "178 members of the Israeli security forces were killed by Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

    "376 Israeli civilians were killed within Israel by Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories, including 74 minors.

    "77 members of the Israeli security forces were killed within Israel by Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories.

    "Total = 827"

    The above figures considerably underestimate Palestinian deaths since, for example, they "do not include Palestinians who died after medical treatment was delayed due to restrictions of movement." For the first intifada (beginning December 1987) through May 2003, B'Tselem reports 3,650 Palestinians and 1.142 Israelis killed. {2}
    [C]iting the same 3:1 ratio as B'Tselem of Palestinians to Israelis killed during the second Intifada, Amnesty International reports: "The vast majority of those killed and injured on both sides have been unarmed civilians and bystanders." {4}
    The consensus among human rights organizations, sampled in Table 4.1, is that Israeli security forces have resorted to reckless use of force in the Occupied Territories, showing callous disregarded for human life. "[W]hen so many civilians have been killed and wounded," B'Tselem concludes, "the lack of intent makes no difference. Israel remains responsible." {8} In addition, as Amnesty International observes, Israel has at its disposal ample less violent options: "The Israeli security forces' ability to police violent demonstrations without the use of firearms is indicated in their policing of violent demonstrations of Jewish groups ... [N]o demonstrations organized by a Jewish group has ever been fired on, even by rubber bullets." {9} Finally, another of Amnesty's conclusions bearing on U.S. responsibility for the ongoing atrocities merits mention: "The overwhelming majority of cases of unlawful killings and injuries in Israel and the Occupied Territories have been committed by the IDF using excessive force. In particular, the IDF have used US-supplied helicopters in punitive rocket attacks where there was no imminent danger to life. Israel has also used helicopter gunships to carry out extrajudicial executions and to fire at targets that resulted in the killing of civilians, including children. Many of Israel's military helicopters and spare parts have been supplied by the USA, Canada and the UK." {10}

    Human Rights Watch, 2000: "The organization found a pattern of repeated Israeli use of excessive lethal force during clashes between its security forces and Palestinian demonstrators in situations where demonstrators were unarmed and posed no threat of death or serious injury to the security forces or to others. In cases that HRW investigated where gunfire by Palestinian security forces or armed protesters was a factor, use of lethal force by the IDF was indiscriminate and not directed at the source of the threat, in violation of international law enforcement standards" (p1). {a}

    Amnesty International, 2000: "[T]he majority of people killed were taking part in demonstrations where stones were the only weapon used ... A large proportion of those injured and killed included children usually present and often among those throwing stones during demonstrations. Bystanders, people within their homes and ambulance personnel were also killed. Many persons were apparently killed by poorly targeted lethal fire; others .. appear, on many occasions, to have been deliberately targeted. In many of the locations where children were killed there was no imminent danger to life nor reasonable expectation of future danger" (pp. 5-6). {b}

    B'Tselem, 2002: "[Open-fire] regulations apparently enable firing in situations where there is no clear and present danger to life, or even in situations where there is no life-threatening danger at all" (p. 7). {c}
    "[T]he military police investigations unit has opened almost no investigations into cases where soldiers fired in violation of the Regulations ... The Military Police investigations that were initiated were not frank and serious attempts to reach the truth ... [I]n only two cases were indictments filed for unjustified shooting, and they were filed more than a year after the incidents occurred" (pp. 11-13). {d}
    "During the first months of the al-Aqsa intifada, Palestinians held hundreds of demonstrations ... Palestinian demonstrators did not open fire in the vast majority of demonstrations. The soldiers responded to these demonstrations by using excessive and disproportionate force, leading to many casualties, including children" (p. 16).
    "[R]egulations ... permit soldiers to open fire, automatically, at any Palestinian who approaches areas in the Gaza Strip referred to as 'danger zones.' ... In effect, it constitutes a death sentence for every person who approaches, whether deliberately or by mistake, a settlement's fence, certain roads, or the fence along the border ... An order of this kind also completely ignores the fact that many Palestinians try to sneak into Israel to go to work and not to injure Israeli soldiers or civilians" (pp. 39-41).
    In its comprehensive study Jenin: IDF Military Operations, Human Rights Watch found that "many of the civilian deaths" amounted to "unlawful and wilful killings" by the IDF - for example, "Kamal Sgheir, a fifty-seven-year-old wheelchair-bound man who was shot and run over by a tank on a major road outside the camp on April 10, even though he had a white flag attached to his wheelchair." {11} In its comprehensive study Shielded from Scrutiny: IDF Violations in Jenin and Nablus, Amnesty International likewise documented many cases "where people were killed or injured in circumstances suggesting that they were unlawfully and deliberately targeted" - for example, "On 6 April 2002, 33-year-old Jamal al-Sabbagh was shot by the IDF after he had been taken into their custody," although, according to a witness, "he was unarmed and had posed no threat to the soldiers who had detained him."
    Human Rights Watch concluded that "during their incursion into the Jenin refugee camp, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes," while Amnesty likewise concluded that "the IDF carried out actions which violate international human rights humanitarian law; some of these actions amount to war crimes." {13}
    A November 2000 study by Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) found that in Gaza "[n]early half the victims were shot in the head. There were several victims shot in the back or from behind and in one instance, evidence indicates the victims was probably on the ground when shot ... In several of these cases, PHR was able to document that there was no imminent danger posed to the IDF in the context of the shooting." It also found "a repetitive pattern of high velocity gunshot wounds to the leg, particularly to the thigh. These wounds cause extreme injury ... The majority of victims ... will have permanent disability in the affected leg ... [M]any of those injured in this manner were mostly throwing stones." PHR concludes: "The numerous head and eye injuries, the high proportion of thigh wounds and fatal head wounds, and the fact that similar patterns of such shootings occurred over a period of weeks demonstrate two disturbing patterns: 1) IDF soldiers are not firing only in life-threatening situations and 2)they are firing at heads and thighs to injure and kill, not to avoid life-threatening injury." {14}

    In a March 2002 sutdy, B'Tselem reported the testimony of Major General Mickey Levi, inventor of the device for shooting rubber bullets, that these bullets "should not be categorised as non-lethal." It goes on to cite testmonies from IDF soldiers that "many soldiers alter rubber bullets to make them more lethal." {15} An October 2002 Amnesty International study found that the IDF "regularly" used rubber bullets against child demonstrators "at distances considerably closer than the minimum permitted range, ... and the pattern of injury indicates that the IDF practice has not been to aim at the legs of demonstrators, as the majority of injuries suffered by children from rubber-coated bullets are to the upper body and head." Amnesty concludes: "[T]he large number of children killed and injured by the IDF throughout the Occupied Territories in the past two years and the fact that most children killed or injured were hit in the head or upper body shows that in their use of firearms against Palestinian children, the IDF have consistently breached international standards regulating the use of force and firearms." {16}
    Last edited by nasalhaironfire; 30-11-2012 at 13:47.

  6. #35
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    Nasalhaironfire - so you think that the Greens are right in supporting the anti-women / anti-gay / terrorist group Hamas?

    Do you support Hamas?

  7. #36
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    More excerpts from Beyond Chutzpah - On The Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History:

    To demonstrate Israel's "commitment to proportionality and to avoiding unnecessary civilian casualties," Dershowitz cites on page 146 of The Case For Israel the "Israeli attack directed against Salah Shehadeh, a leading Hamas commander who was responsible for hundreds of terrorist bombings," Dershowitz goes on to state: "On several [prior] occasions, the army passed up opportunities to attack him 'because he was with his wife or children. Each time Sehadeh's life was spared, he directed more bombings against Israel.' In other words, Israel was prepared to risk the lives of its own civilians in order to spare the lives of Palestinian civilians, including the wife of a major terrorist."

    The internal quote, from a Boston Globe article, is the self-serving testimony of an Israeli officer. Dershowitz also forgets to mention what happened during the "attack directed against Salah Shehadeh," which the author of the Globe article placed in the lead paragraph: "an Israeli Air Force F-16 dropped a one-ton bomb on Salah Shehadeh's Gaza City apartment building," killing, alongsid Shehadeh, "another 14 Palestinians civilians, nine of them children." {17}. (Scores were injured and many homes destroyed.) Air Force Commaner Major General Dan Halutz said on Israeli army radio regarding Shehadeh's assassination: "[W]e fired knowing his wife would be near him." Amnesty Inernational deplored the attack as "disproportionate" and "utterly unacceptable." Although an IDF inquiry subsequently determined that the means of attack had been "inappropriate", Major General Halutz told the pilots who dropped the one-ton bomb, "Guys, sleep well tonight. By the way, I sleep well at night, too," while Prime Minister Sharon hailed the bombing as "a great success."
    Already during the British Mandate years, the Zionist movement across the political spectrum targeted civilians, and after its establishment, Israel indiscriminately bombarded Arab villages, towns and cities. Historian Anita Shapira reports that main****** Labor Zionism and dissident right-wing Zionist factions basically concurred on applying force against Arabs. During the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt, the Irgun engaged in "uninhibited use of terror",; "mass indiscriminate killings of the aged, women and children"; execution of Jews "suspected of informing, even though some of these persons were totally innocent"; "attacks against British without any consideration of possible injuries to innocent bystanders, and the murder of British in cold blood"; and so on. Although Labor Zionism's approach to violence was "more 'civilized' than" the Irgun's, Shapira continues, "they did not differ in essential respects." Comparing the elite Labor Zionist shock troops of the Palmach with the Irgun, she express skepticism that the "external differences in framework and patterns of behaviour were sufficient to create a different attitude toward fighting or to develop 'civilian' barriers to military callousness and insensitivity." During the Arab Revolt, for example, a British officer recruited squads from Labor Zionist settlements to inflict collective punishment in "merciless raids" on Arab villages: "boundaries of the permissible and nonpermissible in the assaults on these villages were "vague and intentionally blurred." {22}

    Main****** Zionist forces committed multiple atrocities against civilians during the 1948 war as well as afterwards during the "border wars." In 1956 Israel attacked Egypt and occupied Sinai and the Gaza Strip. Regarding its occupation of Gaza, Benny Morris reports: "[M]any Fedayeen and an estimated 4,000 Egyptian and Palestinian regulars were trapped in the Strip, identified, and rounded up by the IDF, GSS, and police. Dozens of these Fedayeen appear to have been summarily executed, without trial. Some were probably killed during two massacres by IDF troops soon after the occupation of the Strip ... [T]he day Khan Yunis was conquered, IDF troops shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants of the town .. in Rafah, ... Israeli troops killed between forty-eight and one hundred refugees and several local residents, and wounded another sixty-one ... Another sixty-six Palestinians, probably Fedayeen, were executed in a number of other incidents ... The United Nations estimated that, all told, Israeli troops killed between 447 and 550 Arab civilians in the first three weeks of the occupation of the Strip." {23}

    The trigger for the sequence of events climaxing in the June 1967 war was an Israeli "retaliatory" strike in November 1966 against the Jordanian village of Samu in the West Bank. In the largest military operation since 1956, an Israeli armored brigade of four thousand methodically razed 125 homes, clinic, a school, and a workshop. killing eighteen Jordanian soldiers as well. (One Israeli soldier was killed.) Noting that the toll it took "in human lives and in destruction far surpasses the cumulative total of the various acts of terrorism conducted against the frontiers of Israel," U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Arthur Goldberg declared, "I wish to make it absolutely clear that this large-scale military action cannot be justified, explained away or excused by the incidents which preceded it and in which the Government of Jordan has not been implicated." {24}. [Contrary to what Alan Dershowitz claims in The Case For Israel,] Oren doesn't state that, during the June 1967 War, to avoid Arab civilian casualties, Israel "made sure" the fighting took place away from densely populated areas. He merely states that, as it happened, "much of the fighting took place far from major population centers." In the course of the June war, Israel executed scores of Egyptian POWs and launched an unprovoked - and almost certainly premeditated - air and naval assault on the USS Liberty, killing 34 US Navy men and wounding 171. {25}

    During the 1968-1970 "War of Attrition" between Egypt and Israel, Israel launched attacks on the cities of Ismailia, Kantara, and Suez on the east bank of the Suez Canal, turning them into "empty shells," as scores of Egyptian civilians were killed and 500,000 to 750,000 were forced to flee their homes. {26}. Soon after the June war, Israel also began bombing villages in southern Lebanon, and after 1974 without even the pretense of retaliation. In March 1978, after a Palestinian terrorist attack launched from Beiruit, Israel invaded south Lebanon, indiscriminately bombing villages, towns, and the city of Tyre, killing more than one thousand people, almost all civilians, and creating nearly 300,000 refugees. After the invasion, military correspondent Zeev Schiff glossed an admission from Israel's chief of staff: "The Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously ... the Army ... has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets ... [but] purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck." In June 1982, despite PLO restraint in the face of numerous Israeli provocations, Israel again invaded Lebanon. It indiscriminately bombed and shelled Lebanese villages, towns, and the cities of Tyre, Sidon, and Beirut, as well as - and most mercilessly - Palestinian refugee camps, everywhere hitting civilian sites such as residential neighborhoods, schools, and hospitals. The massive, weeks-long, murderous bombing and shelling of Beiruit culminated in early August, when - in the words of veteran Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk - "[t]o call the gunfire indiscriminate was an understatement. It would also have been a lie. The Israeli bombardment ... was, we realised later, discriminate. It targeted every civilian area, every institution in west Beirut - hospitals, schools, apartments, shops, newspaper offices, hotels, the prime minister's office, and the parks. Incredibly, the Israeli shells even blew part of the roof off the city's synagogue in Wadi Abu Jamil where the remnants of Beirut's tiny Jewish community still lived." The carpet bombing and massive shelling of Lebanon's cities, towns, and villages and Palestinian refugee camps, the use of cluster bombs and phosphorus shells in civilian areas; the cutting off of Beirut's electricity, water, and food supplies - all this was attested to by innumerable foreign journalists and humanitarian organizations as well as Israeli journalists and soldiers. {27}
    In July 1993, Israel launched Operation Accountability, a "ferocious Israeli assault on population centers in southern Lebanon," killing some 120, displacing 300,000, and severely damaging more than fifty-five villages. {29} In April 1996 Israel launched yet another invasion of Lebanon, Operation Grapes of Wrath, killing mostly civilians, including two women and four girls inside an ambulance. In addition, Israeli forces shelled the U.N. compound in Qana, killing 102 civilians. "On the basis of all the information available," Amnesty International concluded, "the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound." All told, some 150 civilians were killed and 350 wounded in the invasion. {30}
    Finkelstein's footnotes:

    {1} For ratio, see Ben Kaspit, "When the intifada erupted, it was finally clear to all: Israel is not a state with an army but an army with a state, " Maariv (6 September 2002), citing "government and security officials." Amnesty International, Broken Lives - A Year of Intifada (London, 2001), p. 14

    {2} B'Tselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories), "Total Casualties," www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Ttal_Casualties.asp

    {3} Kaspit, "When the intifada erupted."

    {4} Amnesty International, "No one is safe - the spiral of killings and destruction must stop." (press release, 29 September 2003)

    {8} B'Tselem, "Operation Defensive Shield: Soldiers' Testimonies, Palestinian Testimonies (Jerusalem, 2002), p. 5

    {9} Amnesty International, "Excessive Use of Lethal Force", (London, 200, p. 7; see also Amnesty International, "Broken Lives", pp. 17-18

    {10} Amnesty International, "Broken Lives", p. 12

    {a} Human Rights Watch, "Investigation Into the Unlawful Use of Force n the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Northern Israel", (New York, 2000), see also Human Rights Watch, "Center of the Storm: A Case Study of Human Rights Abuses in Hebron District", (New York, April 2001), pp. 3-4 and chapter 5

    {b} Amnesty International, "Excessive Use of Lethal Force", (London, 2000). See also Amnesty Internatonal, "Broken Lives - A Year of Intifada" (London, 2001), pp. 14, 20, 23

    {c} B'Tselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories), "Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violations of the Open-Fire regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada", (Jerusalem, 2002). See also B'Tselem, "The Open-Fire Regulations," www.btselem.org/english/Open_Fire_regulations/index.asp: "[t]he Regulations now state, in part, that stone-throwing is "life threatening".

    {d} B'Tselem (Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories), "Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violations of the Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada", (Jerusaem, 2002). For lack of military investigations, see also Amnesty International, "Broken Lives", pp. 23-25; B'Tselem, "Operation Defensive Shield: Soldiers' Testimonies, Palestinian Testimonies", (Jerusalem, 2002), p. 5, which reports that "In the first 18 months of the current intifada, soldiers have killed 697 Palestinians, but the army has launched only 21 Military Police investigations involving illegal shootings and filed only four indictments"; and B'Tselem website, "Military Police investigations during the al-Aqsa intifada," www.btselem.org/English/Open_Fire_Regulations/Jag_Investigations.asp, noting that the few Military Police investigations, "were opened only after human rights organizations, diplomats, or journalists put pressure."

    {11} Human Rights Watch, "Jenin: IDF Military Operations", (New York, 2002), pp. 2-3 and especially chapter 6 ("Civilian Casualties and Unlawful Killings in Jenin")

    {12} Amnesty International, "Shielded from Scrutiny: IDF Violations in Jenin and Nablus", (London, 2002), pp. 14-25 (Sabbagh at 16-17), 67 ("unlawful and deliberately")

    {13} Human Rights Watch, "Jenin", chapter 2 ("Summary"); Amnesty International, "Shielded From Scrutiny", p. 5

    {14} Physicians for Human Rights, "Evaluation of the Use of Force in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank: Medical and Forensic Investigation", (Boston, 3 November 2000), pp. 2, 17-18

    {15} B'Tselem, "Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violations of the Open-Fire Regulations During the al-Aqsa Intiafada", (Jerusalem, 2002, pp. 19-20. ON rubber bullets, see also B'Tselem "The Use of Firearms", (Jerusalem, 1990), pp. 15-16

    {16} Amnesty International, "Killing the Futue: Children in the Line of Fire", (London, 2002), p. 13

    {22} Anita Shapira, "Land and Power: The Zionit Resort to Force: 1881-1948, (Oxford, 1992), pp. 247-252, 350 365. See also Tom Segev, "One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate", (New York, 1999), pp. 386-387, 430-431

    {23} Morris, "Border Wars", pp. 408-409

    {24} "United Nations Security Council Office Records", 1320th Meeting, (16 November 1966)

    {25} Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict", pp. 196-197

    {26} Martin van Creveld, "The Sword and the Olive", (New York, 1998) (quoted phrase at p. 211)

    {27} For Israel's depredations in Lebanon, see Noam Chomsky, "Fateful Triangle", updated edition (Boston, 1999) (Schiff quote at p. 181), and Robert Fisk, "Pity The Nation", (New York, 1990) (quote at pp. 314-315)

    {28} "Benny Morris responds" in "Letters", "Tikkun", (March-April 1989)

    {29} Human Rights Watch, "Civilian Pawns - Laws of War Violations onthe Israel-Lebanon Border", (New York, May 1996); Amnesty International, "Unlawful Killings during Operation rapes of Wrath", (London, July 1996)

    {30} Amnesty International, "Unlawful Killings"

    Oren reference: Oren, "Six Days", pp. 306-307
    Last edited by nasalhaironfire; 30-11-2012 at 13:53.

  8. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Achievements:Topaz Star - 500 posts
    Father, in answer to your first quesion, I have not seen any evidence that the Greens support Hamas.

    In answer to your second question, I do not support Hamas. I do not support Israel either.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to nasalhaironfire For This Useful Post:

    misskittyfantastico  (29-11-2012),wrena  (30-11-2012)

  10. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Achievements:Topaz Star - 500 posts
    Here is Norman G. Finkelstein talking about Operation Cast Lead.


    Also, if you scroll down a bit in this thread you will come across a section entitled "Similar Threads". One of those threats is entitled "UN: No Hamas Fighters in bombed Gaza School". That is the same school which I posted an article about earlier in this thread. The one in which Father took at face value Israel's claim that an Hamas militant fired from the school.


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