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  1. #121
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    MummaOJ, don't worry, I'm not afraid.

    hollychops, you wrote "Ok Steve, so you're saying that fluoride in water has no impact on dental caries, but is responsible for the 400% increase in dementia seen in ROI as compared to NI??? That's just a bizarre statement.… ROI and NI, and the rest of Europe, have completely different health systems and lifestyles eg. rates of smoking, drinking, excercise [sic], diet. All of these will have an impact on rates of disease." Firstly, I didn't say anything about fluoride in water being responsible for the observed differences in health outcomes. Obviously the point of the exercise was to support the idea that fluoridation does cause worse health outcomes, but of course there are other factors, and if everything else were equal fluoridation may cause less than the observed difference, or it may cause more than the observed difference. Secondly, it was actually early onset dementia, not dementia, and it was a 450% difference, not 400%. Thirdly, yes, Declan did consider confounding variables. If you think that rates of smoking, drinking, exercise, and diet are likely to account for a 450% difference in the rate of early onset dementia, you're kidding yourself. If you look at a map, you'll see that the island of Ireland is not particularly large. And if you know a little history, you will know that the people of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have a shared cultural history, and the current political division between them is really just an accident of history. It's conceivable that the worse health outcomes in ROI are largely the result of one or more other factors, but at this stage fluoridation is by far the most plausible single explanation. Why don't you try to find a better explanation? Good luck, you'll need it.

    The idea that fluoridation may cause greatly increased rates of early onset dementia and other illnesses doesn't just come out of thin air. Here are a few quotes from the 2006 NRC report.
    "Fluoride produces additional effects on the ACh systems of the brain by its interference with acetylcholinesterase.
    Most of the drugs used today to treat Alzheimer's disease are agents that enhance the effects of the remaining ACh system."
    "In addition to a depletion of acetylcholinesterase, fluoride produces alterations in phospholipid metabolism and/or reductions in the biological energy available for normal brain functions (see section later in this chapter on neurochemical effects). In addition, the possibility exists that chronic exposure to AlFx can produce aluminium inclusions with blood vessels as well as in their intima and adventitia. The aluminium deposits inside the vessels and those attached to the intima could cause turbulence in the blood flow and reduce transfer of glucose and O2 to the intercellular fluids. Finally histopathological changes similar to those traditionally associated with Alzheimer's disease in people have been seen in rats chronically exposed to AlF"
    "AlFx not only provides false messages throughout the nervous system but, at the same time, diminishes the energy essential to brain function.
    Fluorides also increased the production of free radicals in the brain through several different biological pathways. These changes have a bearing on the possibility that fluorides act to increase the risk of developing Alzheimer's disease."

    beebs, do you have any evidence that the Republic of Ireland has a higher rate of binge drinking than Northern Ireland?

    pegasus, the article you linked to is just more nonsense from fluoridationists to go with all the rest, which should be obvious to anyone who bothers to do their own investigation.

  2. #122
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    Passionately pro-fluoride in the drinking water:
    I've seen the evidence and it is compelling.

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  4. #123
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    Has anyone actually googled what Steve is saying too see if he is just pulling it all from Google???

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve533 View Post
    Firstly, I didn't say anything about fluoride in water being responsible for the observed differences in health outcomes.
    Come on now, we all know that's why you're really still here. What are you trying to say then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve533 View Post
    Secondly, it was actually early onset dementia, not dementia, and it was a 450% difference, not 400%.
    Bahahahaha! Now you're really clutching at straws! That extra 50% doesn't sway my decision. It just makes me think you're at least mildly anal retentive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve533 View Post
    Thirdly, yes, Declan did consider confounding variables. If you think that rates of smoking, drinking, exercise, and diet are likely to account for a 450% difference in the rate of early onset dementia, you're kidding yourself.
    I just flipped over the 343 page document, so I may well have missed it, but where does he exclude possible confounders and how? He has simply provided a rambling literature review acknowledging on several occasions the "unproven possibilities" that fluoride causes x and y.

    Why WOULDN'T smoking, alcohol, diet and exercise be attributable to a higher rate of EOD? Alcohol, head injury, and infectious diseases have been highlighted as possible causes. I dunno, maybe all that drunken Irish dancing? Quite seriously, dismissing these as a cause is just flippant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve533 View Post
    If you look at a map, you'll see that the island of Ireland is not particularly large. And if you know a little history, you will know that the people of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have a shared cultural history, and the current political division between them is really just an accident of history. It's conceivable that the worse health outcomes in ROI are largely the result of one or more other factors, but at this stage fluoridation is by far the most plausible single explanation. Why don't you try to find a better explanation? Good luck, you'll need it.
    Ok I looked at a map, thanks for that. I've been there so I know it's small. The political division may just be an "accident of history", but they are still 2 separate countries. They have a different government with different health systems. Most of the diseases discussed in Declan's report are the
    result of hypocalcaemia. Vitamin D exposure and recommendations for prevention and treatment of deficiencies will invariably differ. In Australia approximately 30% of people are deficient which puts them at risk of hypocalcaemia.

    Anyway, that's my two cents worth. It's Friday night. Now where did I put my glass of wine?

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  7. #125
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    Pegasus is offline and all that the Lorax left here in this mess was a small pile of rocks with the one word...UNLESS
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    pegasus, the article you linked to is just more nonsense from fluoridationists to go with all the rest, which should be obvious to anyone who bothers to do their own investigation.
    A study led by the University of Adeledaide is more nonsense from fluoridationists?

    It's funny how I've tried to look further into some of the claims you've linked to, and not found scientific back up for them.

    Maybe they're more nonsense from anti-fluoridationists to go with all the rest?

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  9. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    A study led by the University of Adeledaide is more nonsense from fluoridationists?

    It's funny how I've tried to look further into some of the claims you've linked to, and not found scientific back up for them.

    Maybe they're more nonsense from anti-fluoridationists to go with all the rest?
    Anything that doesn't fit with Steve's anti fluoride beliefs is "nonsense" or "shameless propaganda".
    His very lengthy responses are quite impressive looking until you actually read them, then try to validate them.

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  11. #127
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    [QUOTE And if you know a little history, you will know that the people of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland have a shared cultural history, and the current political division between them is really just an accident of history.

    beebs, do you have any evidence that the Republic of Ireland has a higher rate of binge drinking than Northern Ireland[/QUOTE]

    What the heck does "accident of history" even mean in relation to Ireland, and what has it got to do with anything anyway?

    I didn't say Ireland had a higher binge drinking rate than NI, I said they had the highest in Europe. You know that NI is not a country right?

    Here is a more recent study than the one I quoted from, apparently binge drinking rates have gone down in Ireland in the last 7 years, so they are no longer at the top, they still however have a higher rate than the uk (which is where NI is). As we all know drinking causes long term damage to people, so 7 years means nothing in relation to the people in Ireland who were drinking more 7 years ago than they are now, you'd have to do another study in 40 years to get the correct data.

    http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/pape...ing-report.pdf

    You still aren't posting any actual scientific data, sure you've posted a couple of papers, on from 1978 I noticed. This is exactly what anti vaxxers do, they find the two or three studies that suit their agenda and then post them over and over and try and discredit any other studies done that go against wha they are saying. " you can't trust CSIRO, they are Ebil"

  12. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombiekitty View Post
    Geez, settle down. I'm not shooting down your belief. Do you mind telling me where you think I might have done so?
    I didn't have a 'point', as you put it, I was just curious as many water tanks on properties are filled by water trucks no biggie.
    Most people that have water tanks have them to collect rain water. Coming from a farming background I have never known anyone to have water trucked in to fill their tank, not here in WA anyway.

    but back to the ops question; I don't think fluoride is necessary to have added to our drinking water. We always had a rain water tank growing up and non of us have had much dental work. We have a rain water tank on our property now, love the taste of fresh rain water compared to the taste of tap water. Fluoride in toothpaste is sufficient.

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  14. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberleygal1 View Post
    Most people that have water tanks have them to collect rain water. Coming from a farming background I have never known anyone to have water trucked in to fill their tank, not here in WA anyway.
    Here in qld before all this rain, mainly a few years ago, I know many, many people who had to get a water tanker in to fill their water tank. It is quite common actually.

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    I'm all for flouride in tap water, yep. The epidemiological evidence convinced me.

    I just wish they'd chuck some wine in there too.... Perhaps a little prozac... I'd be happy

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