I'm sorry but personally, as an Atheist - I think introducing the 'idea' of 'a god' - and then labelling that god the christian god IS delivering something to your child instead of 'letting them make up their own mind'.
Being an 'atheist', by definition, is the default position. "Lack of beleif in god(s)"
I find it really ineteresting to read about 'atheists' or 'agnostics' that say they have made that decision for themselves - but still introduce a false dichotomy.
It is NOT black and white - it is not "God (the christian god) OR No God"
...why is it not many in Australia run the idea of Shiva past their chidlren?
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25-07-2012 21:51 #21
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25-07-2012 22:23 #22
26-07-2012 09:18 #23
Yep, and your post is a great example of you as an idividual using 'your' common sense..as in - what idea is most acepted amongst your closest peers.
I have in the past come across a FANTASTIC site on 'death and afterlife' - but I can't remember where it is - grrr... so on first google.. THIS is a good enough example of a handful of ideas that have been and do get passed around.
Personally it makes me cringe hen people 'declare' (with an almost chest beating gesture) that they KNOW.
...having a belief that brings comfort, or holding on to one that is tradition and fits best with your thoughts is one thing - we ALL do that... but saying outright that you KNOW!! -- sorry, don't believe you.
And this is why...
The Great Unknown - Some Views of the Afterlife
One way that humans have devised for dealing with the tragedy of death and the knowledge of our own mortality is to develop complex visions of what might follow death. Another page on this site deals with modern perceptions of heaven and hell, but here we consider a few case studies of traditional beliefs and modern day religious ideals about the hereafter.
The story of man's dealings with death is the story of the birth of religion, an epic tale recounted in such works as Michener's The Source. Evidence from archaeological finds suggest that humans, while originally simply leaving their dead aside, started to assume a more paternal or mournful role, leaving with corpses various mementos and marking graves. From flower petals to flint, fetal positions to facing east, bear bones to goat horns, man started supplementing the basic corpse. From Neanderthal, and especially Cro-Magnon times evolved an increasingly ritualistic approach. While Mesopotamians dealth with death simply, their contemporaries the Egpytians adopted a much more complex approach.
Beliefs about the transition from the mortal world to eternal life were recorded throughout the more than three thousand years of ancient Egypt's history, though new ideas were incorporated from time to time. Most important for full participation in the afterlife was the need for an individual's identity to be preserved. Consequently, the body had to remain intact and receive regular offerings of food and drink.
The final step in the transition to the afterlife was the judgment in the Hall of Maat (the god of justice) by Horus (the god of the sky) and Thoth (scribe of the dead) by comparing ab (the conscience) and a feather. The ritual was known as the Weighing of the Heart. Heavy hearts were swallowed by a creature with a crocodile head who was called the Devourer of Souls. The good people were led to the Happy Fields, where they joined Osiris, god of the underworld. Many spells and rituals were designed to ensure a favorable judgment and were written in the papyrus or linen "Book of the Dead."
All ancient Egyptians believed in the afterlife and spent their lives preparing for it. Pharaohs built the finest tombs, collected the most elaborate funerary equipment, and were mummified in the most expensive way. Others were able to provide for their afterlives according to their earthly means. Regardless of their wealth, however, they all expected the afterlife to be an idealized version of their earthly existence.
While philosopher Socrates accepted death calmly, in general the Greeks feared death. The journey after death was to a land known as Hades, ruled by a god named Hades. The first part of the journey required crossing the river Styx by being buried with a coin for the boatman Charon. Next, Cereberus, the three-headed guard dog, would have to be appeased with honeycake.
The Underworld offered punishment for the bad and pleasure for the good. On the one hand, the Elysian Fields, a sunny and green paradise, was the home to those who had a led a good life. Others were condemned to a torture. Tantalus, for example, was forced to be perpetually hungry and thirsty while next to a fruit tree and lake that he just barely failed to reach. And Sisyphus was forced to a roll a rock up a hill, only to have it return to the bottom where he began the task. They provide us with the English words tantalize and Sisyphusian task, both of which describe a frustrating futility. Most were not actually tortured, however. Rather, they went on shadows of their previous selves.
One view of life and death propounded in this period said that the short period of life was viewed as a prison, a term which had to be served by the spirit before it could be freed to go to take its place in the glorious Milky Way. Life was the spirit's death, its period of harsh servitude before release was attained. Yet it was seen as wrong for a man to wish to hasten his death, as the purpose of life was to nurture the world and cultivate both the physical and the spiritual plane before moving on. A life spent in service and good deeds, cultivating justice, piety and honor for one's family and country was a highway to the skies, a guarantee of joy to follow. The mortal world was seen as being the center of a revolving universe, the lowest of nine spheres through which the moon and stars turned. The mortal body was only viewed as the outer representation of the spirit, the immortal aspect of man. In that sense, all men were gods, immortal, controlling their own body, feeling, remembering and having awareness of the greater things beyond.
For the Maoris of New Zealand death was represented as a journey. In common with many such beliefs, it included crossing a river. A key hope and expectation was that of reunion with family and friends who had gone before. The deceased would be greeted with wailing and chanted to commemorate their arrival. The path to the other side featured monstrous creatures, dangerous cliffs and fear, but once there, life would be familiar and comfortable. In exceptional circumstances the path between the two worlds could be traveled in either direction, though eating the food of the dead would bind a spirit to stay in the land of the dead. The hut in which a person had died was then abandoned and sealed as a sign of respect.
Similarities can be seen between the Polynesian beliefs described above and the beliefs of the Aztecs. A priest would deliver a formalized speech over the newly dead person, following a ritual to ease their path to the next level of existence. Water was trickled onto the head as during a baptism, and words of mourning pronounced. Papers were laid on the corpse which were intended to aid the person to pass through the hazardous journey they faced. The perils ahead included mountains, deserts, confrontations with serpent and lizards, and a place where the wind would drive with obsidian knives. Once the person had overcome the perils of the Underworld Way, the soul would arrive before Miclantecutli, where it would stay for four years. The final stage required the help of the man's dog, sacrificed at his death, to travel across the Ninefold ******, and then hound and master, to enter the eternal house of the dead, Chicomemictlan.
For traditional aborigines, the spirit world was closely interwoven with the physical world, so the transition between one and the other was explained in terms of traditional relationships with the land. Death marked the end of the physical life only, with the spirit then released to rejoin the spirits of ancestors, and of the features of the land itself. The "dreamtime" was the world of creation, of the earliest tribal memories, but also of the continuing abode of all those who could not be immediately seen in the physical world. Some tribes believed that the spirit remained to inhabit the place where the person had died, while others believed that it was carried across the sea to the land of the dead. In some tribes, the spirit was believed to have a chance to be reborn at some future time and live another earthly existence.
Liberal Christian Beliefs
Liberal Christians recognize that the writers of the Bible held a variety of beliefs concerning Heaven and Hell. The earliest books of the Bible described an underground cavern where all people, good and bad, spent eternity after death. The later books described Hell as either a place of annihilation or of eternal punishment. Generally speaking, this system of beliefs looks upon Hell as a concept, not as a place of punishment. The idea that a person would suffer eternal punishment for a single oversight, error or sin during life is seen as unjust. Punishment of an individual because she/he had never heard the Gospel is also viewed as irrational and unjust. They feel that a loving God would be incapable of creating such a place.
Conservative Protestant Beliefs
Generally speaking, conservative Protestants believe that everyone has the gift of eternal life. The body dies, but the soul lives forever. The big question is where each person will spend eternity. Heaven is a glorious location where there is an absence of pain, disease, sex, depression, etc. and where people live in new, spiritual bodies, in the presence of Jesus Christ. Hell is a location where its inmates will be punished without any hope of relief, for eternity. The level of punishment will be the same for everyone. The Bible talks about fire and (presumably flesh eating) worms.
The second major belief is that most humans will be sent to Hell after they die. Only those few who have been "saved" will go to heaven. Salvation requires repentance of sins and trusting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. People who have been saved and make it to heaven will not all be treated equally. Believers who have done many good deeds will be rewarded more in heaven; believers who have led an evil life will be rewarded less.
Roman Catholic Beliefs
Hell is a location where its inmates will be punished without any hope of relief, for eternity. Among those punished will be Satan, the angels that supported him, and persons who have died without having repented their sins. Sincere confession of a mortal sin to an authorized priest and making restitution if required, leads to absolution of the sin, and the avoidance of Hell. The level of punishment will be meted out in accordance with the seriousness of the individual's sin. The fire and brimstone is most clearly evinced in Jontathan Edwards's classic sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."
In Hell, punishment will be in the form of isolation from God, and some supernatural form of fire which causes endless pain but does not consume the body. The Church teaches that "the souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven." They spend time in Purgatory until fully cleansed of imperfections, venial (less serious) sins etc. Purgatory will be terminated at the time of the general judgement. The intensity and duration of the punishment can be reduced by friends and family, if they offer Masses, prayers "and other acts of piety and devotion." For babies who died unbaptized, they entered heaven after staying in limbo for a while.
Members of The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society (WTS) believe that Hell does not exist. They interpret Hell symbolically as the "common grave of mankind." Most people simply cease to exist at death; they are annihilated. The Heavenly Kingdom was established in 1914 CE. A "little flock" or "Anointed Class" of about 135,400 people are believed by this group to currently inhabit Heaven. Another 8,600 are still alive and will also spend eternity with God at a later date. The battle of Armageddon will start soon. Jesus, under Jehovah's divine rage, will execute vengeance upon the rest of Christendom and followers of "Babylon the Great" (other religions). After the world is purified, a theocracy "God's Kingdom" will be established on earth for 1000 years. Those who survive Armageddon, the "other sheep," will live in peace in the newly created utopia. They will be joined by the worthy dead who have been resurrected. After 1000 years of God's Kingdom, Satan, his demon forces and all those rebellious ones who turn against God will be finally destroyed. In order to be saved, a person must accept the doctrines formulated by the WTS Governing Body, be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, and follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that not one, but three heavens exist. The highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom are reserved for Mormon couples who have been married in a Mormon temple and thus have had their marriage sealed for eternity. The couples can eventually become a God and Goddess; the husband will then be in control of an entire universe. The Terrestrial Kingdom, is the destination for most individuals. The Terrestrial Kingdom is for "liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers"
Hell exists, but very few people will stay there forever. Most will eventually "pass into the terrestrial kingdom; the balance, cursed as 'sons of perdition', will be consigned to partake of endless wo [sic] with the devil and his [fallen] angels." Sons of perdition have been defined as once devout Mormons who have become apostates and have left the church. Others define them as persons who have knowingly committed one of the most serious sins and have not repented and sought God's forgiveness. Among these almost unforgivable sins are murder and pre-marital sex.
Seventh Day Adventists
The Seventy-Day Adventists believe in the traditional concept of Heaven and Hell. However, they do not believe that Hell is a place of eternal punishment "with sinners screaming in agony without end." They view Hell as a place where the unsaved will be burned up, reduced to ashes, and annihilated. They cite Biblical verses to show that the "'everlasting' in 'everlasting hell' means 'as long as there is something to burn in hell.' Our God is a loving God and to portray sinners as screaming in agony forever and ever does not portray God in such light."
26-07-2012 09:19 #24
The final goal of salvation in Hinduism is escape from the endless round of birth, death, and rebirth. That can mean an eternal resting place for the individual personality in the arms of a loving, personal God, but it usually means the dissolving of all personality into the unimaginable abyss of Brahman.
Four ways of reaching such salvation, are described. Jnana yoga, the way of knowledge, employs philosophy and the mind to comprehend the unreal nature of the universe. Bhakti yoga, the way of devotion or love, reaches salvation through ecstatic worship of a divine being. Karma yoga, the way of action, strives toward salvation by performing works without regard for personal gain and Raja yoga, "the royal road," makes use of meditative yoga techniques.
Most Hindus consider that they have many incarnations ahead of them before they can find final salvation, although some sects believe that a gracious divinity will carry them along the way more quickly.
The Islamic holy book, the Koran, says that salvation depends on a man's actions and attitudes. However, repentance can turn an evil man toward the virtue that will save him. The final day of reckoning is described in awesome terms. On that last day every man will account for what he has done, and his eternal existence will be determined on that basis.
Muslims recognize that different individuals have been given different abilities and various degrees of insight into the truth. Each man will be judged according to his situation, and every man who lives according to the truth to the best of his abilities will achieve heaven. However, infidels who are presented with the truth of Islam and reject It will be given no mercy. God judges all men, and the infidels will fall off the bridge al-Aaraf into hell while the good men continue on to heaven.
The Koran has vivid descriptions of both heaven and hell. Heaven is depicted in terms of worldly delights, and the torments of hell are shown in lurid detail. Muslims disagree as to whether those descriptions are to be taken literally or not.
Buddhism sees ignorance rather than sin as the roadblock to salvation. That is, the belief that the world and self truly exist, keeps the illusory wheel of existence rolling - only destruction of that belief will stop the mad course of the world.
Its doctrine is based on the belief that life is basically suffering, or dissatisfaction. It follows that the origin of that suffering lies in craving or grasping. This cessation of suffering is possible through the cessation of craving and the way to cease craving and so attain escape from continual rebirth is by following Buddhist practice, known as the Noble Eightfold Path.
Original Buddhist teaching place emphasis on the individual monk working through self-control and a series of meditative practices that progressively lead him to lose a sense of his grasping self. The ultimate state, Nirvana literally means "blowing out," as with the flame of a candle. That is, nothing can be said about it except that it is a transcendent, permanent state. The experience is also likened to a lotus flower unfolding in the sun.
The afterworld was seen as lying to the West in China, on the other side of Mount T'ai.
Moral behavior and attitudes determine one's eternal existence in the hereafter. Although there is no Christian notion of saving grace in Judaism, it is taught that God always offers even the most evil men the possibility of repentance. After such repentance one can atone for one's rebellion against God's ways by positive action. But the notion of individual salvation and heavenly existence is not prominent in Judaism. In fact many Jews criticize Christianity for being a "selfish" religion, too concerned with personal eternal rewards. The notion of an afterlife is not well developed in the Old Testament. Later writers speculated unsystematically about a final Day of Judgment.
Jews still hope for the coming of the Messiah, who will hand out eternal judgment and reward to all. This hope is largely communal; the entire Jewish race and the whole of creation is in view more than individual men. In the end the moral life of man here on earth is considered the most proper concern of man; final judgments are best left to God.
The Existential system of beliefs is very simple - nothing comes after death. We simply cease to be. This creates what is known as the Existential dilemma. That is, our life becomes absurd and meaningless without an afterlife to strive toward. In fact, many believe that the genesis of contemporary religion can be found in the desire for purpose. Thus, the Existential person must try to find meaning in a life that is essentially meaningless and without end culmination.
In this Persian religion, the Chinvat Bridge is a site of judgement. Thoughts, words and actions during life determine placement in death.
In some Native American religions, spirits sometimes have to walk balance beams and require the aid of holy people's prayers to make it to the better part of the afterworld. Those who made it were rewarded with happy hunting grounds.
Shaman must guide souls to the right path. The Tibetan Book of the Dead (also called the Bardo Thodoöl) guides the dying by asking them to accept death. The body will supposedly pass by various false demons on its journey back to life.
Poet Dante Alligheri wrote The Divine Comedy to describe his own vision of the afterlife. It incorporated a wide variety of visions, from the river Styx of the Greeks to vision of hell and purgatory offered by the Christian faiths. His syntheis also included a degree of social commentary, since his inferno involved a raking of the relative harm of various sins.
26-07-2012 09:35 #25Member
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I did say that I wanted to believe; I'm a reluctant atheist. I want my kids to have God in their lives it is enriching for them.
They will learn about all religions, but their spiritual upbringing will center around Christianity because their family are Christian and I know nothing about Shiva.
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26-07-2012 09:44 #26
..atheists don't have to conform to anything! ..most are free thinkers, for example if it were up to my DP the kids wouldn't be learning about ANY religion, but because of MY influence they are discovering what has and does happen the wold over.
26-07-2012 10:35 #27Senior Member
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26-07-2012 11:12 #28
That you die, are either buried in a box where your body will decompose etc or that if you are cremated, your body is burnt and your ashes can be scattered somewhere, kept by family or placed in a wall (usually) at a cemetary, and that's it.
Obviously, we'll talk about memories and remembering the person and how we will always love them, but yeah, once you're dead, you're dead.
So, I'll tell them our truth
*I can haz typos*
Last edited by Lillynix; 26-07-2012 at 11:15.
26-07-2012 11:12 #29Member
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- Feb 2012
But that is also the whole idea of wanting my kids to know Christianity: it is much more difficult for an athiest to become a believer than it is to for a believer to become an athiest. I think that having faith is a valuable human experience and is something that can't just be picked up later in life.
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26-07-2012 11:20 #30
Just to add, I'll absolutely stress that the above is what we believe, but others believe different. That some believe that X happens, others believe that Y happens and some believe Z happens etc then ask them what they believe happens
*I can haz typos*
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