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  1. #1
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    Default HELP! Opinions wanted on 2dt vs 5dt

    Hi girls,

    I'm a bit lost at the moment as to what to do and as much as df and family help I wanted opinions from other women who really know what I'm talking about! Sorry in advance for being long winded!

    We are currently doing ICSI cycle #2. In our first cycle I got 15 eggs out of which 8 fertilised via ICSI. We did 3 seperate 2dt's and then thawed four embies out to grow to blast and none really made it. Well one almost did. we did not acheive a pregnancy at all. Our main problem appears to be sperm morphology and DNA fragmentation which apparently can affect embryos development from day 3 onwards.

    This cycle we are still doing ICSI but with something called zona sperm selection where they sacrifice one of our eggs and the sperm that try to break through the zona (outer shell of egg) are selected for ICSI. It's supposed to help select the best sperm. We also wanted to grow our embies out to blast stage and do a fresh 5dt.

    However this time my body has not reacted as well to the stim drugs and FS says we will be lucky to get 7 eggs in total. So we may only end up with 4-5 fertilised and FS now recommends doing a 2dt and trying to grow the rest to blast. I really had my heart set on a 5dt but am so scared we will end up with nothing. . . .

    any advice or opinions would be great to help me make up my mind! Our egg retrieval is on Friday so need to let FS know before then!

    TIA

  2. #2
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    Personally I think as long as the embryo is of competent quality and can propagate a pregnancy, it doesnt matter if it is day 2 or day 5. I have had 2 x blasts transferred twice but no pregnancy. We are doing IVF due to MFI as well but could be different MFI problem from you.

    If an embryo can make it to day 5, it shows it is possibly competent but still can have abnormal chromosomes and not implant. Even the best looking day 5 embryo has a good chance of failing which is mysterious.

    So, to me, day 2 or day 5 is okay. If it is competent, it doesnt matter.

    Hope that helps.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mom2TwoDSs For This Useful Post:

    daydreamer1  (13-12-2011),Mezmerised  (13-12-2011)

  4. #3
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    We have MFI as well (but a blockage so not reduced sperm quality). I had four transfers (2x3day and 5x2day) and I got pregnant 4 times.... I am currently pregnant with a 2day embie.... I got 14 then 13 eggs from my 2 stim cycles with 6 making it to transfer each time.

    There is always that decision is the embryo better inside at day 2 or growing to day 5 and loosing a few. My FS always wanted them back in asap...and for me I think it was the best choice....but I was thinking about day5 transfers if I had to do another stim cycle....but when i thought about it if the embies were getting to implantation stage they probally would have made it to Day 5 outside as well....

    Can you maybe transfer a 2day and then grow the rest to Day5?

    Its a tough choice but like Mom2OneDS says if they are going to make it...they will make it either way!

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    I am probably going to go against the grain a little - we have MFI issues and also really really poor egg quality. We are currently doing our 7th Stim cycle. In each of our cycles on day 2/3 we have had all the embryos still going but with quite bad fragmentation issues. Once they do the transition from day3 to day 4 we loose about 50% and then day 4 to day 5 we loose most of what it left. We have had one occassion where transfer was cancelled due to not having anything to transfer and our last cycle they transfered an embryo that was really a day behind but it was all we had left.

    We have also never been lucky enough to get any frosties.

    We have also on two occassions transfered a Day 3 and a Day 4 embryo.

    None of our cycles have resulted in a positive pregnancy test. Now I know we are probably worst case scenario due to our qualty issues, but I now work on the theory that if they don;t make it to day 5 it just means that I don;t then spend the tww analysing every little twinge. But that is just my perspective after having gone through 6 stim cycles.

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  8. #5
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    EternalOptimist is offline Never say you have failed until you have reached your last attempt; never say you have reached your last attempt until you have succeeded.
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    I am going to have to agree with BronwynCJ on this topic. We are doing IVF due to sever MFI – my husband has a blockage (basically born with a vasectomy) so needs a biopsy to retrieve his sperm each time i do a stim cycle and even with a biopsy his count is literally 50 individual sperm.

    We have done 3 stim cycles and fert rates range between 60 – 80%, all our embryo’s look perfect at day 3 with no fragmentation however by day 5 that number dramatically reduces.

    First Stim we had 12 were perfect at day 3 but only 3 made it to day 5, 2nd stim we had 8 perfect at day 3 but only a moroula by day 5 with none to freeze. On my last stim we 20 perfect at day 5 but only 8 made it to day 5 and only 5 of those 8 were suitable to freeze.

    If we were to transfer all our perfect looking embryos at day 3 i would of had to endure 48 transfers as they all look perfect at that stage. My FS said that if an embryo doesn’t make it to day 5 then it wouldn’t have resulted in a pregnancy.

    All the best with your decision and goodluck with your cycle.

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    Thankyou so much girls for all your input. I have read all of your replies and they all have good points. It is just such a hard decision to make.

    I have to say though that I have been feeling the same way as EternalOptimist and BronwynCJ for quite a while now after reading and researching these past few months especially with our particular sperm issues which are quite severe. My biggest fear is going through all of this and having nothing to transfer but I guess if none make it to day 5 I do feel that they probably would not have made it at all.

    Bronwyn and Eternal, we seem to have the same as you. Our embryo's all looked great at day 2 but when we grew the four out as soon as they got past day 3 they started to fragment or growth arrested and only one made it to Morula stage.

    We just can't afford to go through heaps of transfers especially if they were never going to work.

    I think I will have to wait and see what we get on Friday and if we get six or more fertilised eggs we will grow them on to blast. If less I may transfer two 2 days and grow the rest to blast. What do you girls think of that plan?

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    The final decision has to be yours. Your plan sounds fine as long as you are happy with it.

    My fs recently tried to convince mento transfer earlier but as I said to him - I would prefer to have nothing to transfer than transfer embryos that are not going to progress and have to go through the tww with all the added progesterone support which kind of makes menan evil biatch. It's kind of like knowing the result a little earlier.

    In saying that though just because they make it to blasto stage is by no means a guarantee that it will work.

    Have you considered tcm to try and improve your dhs results?

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    Yeah I know Brownwyn, thats kind of how I feel, going through the tww is bad enough and I don't want to keep going through it for no reason. I also turn into an evil woman on the progesterone support. I just feel like I got this far I may as well give at least two embies a shot and if none of the others make it to blast I'm ok with that. If we have enough though I'd like to give them all a shot at blast and do a fresh 5dt. I guess it's just a risk to take.

    Both me and dh have done TCM for about 12 months, me more than him. I am doing accupuncture atm and will be using herbs in tww. I love the accu! We are also both taking a fair bit of supplements. It's funny because I got more eggs last time and I was sick with bronchitis and so stressed out! This time I feel great! I just hope these eggs are better quality.

    Can I ask how many eggs you normally get? Also do you use tcm?

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    It is also true that if the embryos all look good at day 3 but not actually make it to become pregnancies, we could certainly be wasting a lot of $ and FET cycles and 2WWs and a lot of time indeed. What a dilemma isnt it?!

    I have read somewhere that if embryos can grow to day 3 very well but not progress beyond day 4 or 5, it is usually due to sperm issues. From day 1-3, it is the egg that is doing the job but from day 4-5 the sperm has to do the job. If I can find the article again, will post it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daydreamer1 View Post
    Can I ask how many eggs you normally get? Also do you use tcm?
    Cycle 1 - flare protocol, 7 Follicles, 7 eggs, 5 mature, 3 fertilised, 1 ET Morula, no frosties - BFN
    Cycle 2 - flare protocol, 10 Follicles, 9 eggs, 8 mature/fertilised, 1 ET Blasto, no frosties - BFN
    Cycle 3 - flare protocol, 12 Follicles, 11 eggs, 10 mature/fertilised, 1 ET Blasto, no frosties - BFN
    Cycle 4 - flare protocol, approx 11 follicles, 9 eggs, 7 fertilised, 2 ET Blasto/Morula, no frosties - BFN
    Cycle 5 - mini clomid & FSH protocol, 4 eggs, 2 fertilised, ET Cancelled no embryos
    Cycle 6 - 4 month suppression, long long long down reg protocol, 9 eggs, 7 mature, 5 fert, 1 morula transferred, no frosties - BFN
    Cycle 7 - back to back antagonist cycle, 9 eggs retrieved, 9 mature, 6 fertilised - no fragmentation on day 1

    With the exception of cycle 1 - I have always been on a dose of 450ui FSH. This seems to get us a good number of eggs and appears to be our ideal dose.

    Yes I have been doing TCM now since November 2009. Between cycles fortnightly for both myself and DH and during a cycle weekly for both of us. The tcm has made some improvements in my DHs result which I think would probably be better if he actually took all his supplements and cut out most of the crap that he eats. But I am just happy that he does anything.


 

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