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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerKat View Post
    Fwiw I have found hard-core feminists to be some of the most judgemental people I've encountered, usually because they tend to have a very unwavering ideal of how the world should be and find it difficult to accept anything less.
    I agree with this.
    Going back to the appearance thing, some of the most vocal 'feminists' believe that you're taking us a step back because you remove any body hair or wear makeup. They're failing to acknowledge that it's about choice and all that should matter is that we're doing it because we WANT to; like I said in the other thread, we don't assume men are altering their appearance for women or because society tells them to, so why is it any different for women?

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmama View Post
    I agree with this.
    Going back to the appearance thing, some of the most vocal 'feminists' believe that you're taking us a step back because you remove any body hair or wear makeup. They're failing to acknowledge that it's about choice and all that should matter is that we're doing it because we WANT to; like I said in the other thread, we don't assume men are altering their appearance for women or because society tells them to, so why is it any different for women?
    I'm just going to respond to this idea of feminism being all about choice with a quote from one of Delirium's earlier posts on this thread. Choices aren't made in a vacuum and critiquing the way women are expected to modify their appearance in modern society isn't the same as attacking women who present themselves this way.

    “Many third wave and liberal feminists have confused ‘personal choice’ with liberation, forgetting that liberation for women should be about collective liberation and really has very little to do with women’s individual, personal choices,” says Meghan Murphy, founder of Feminist Current, a Canadian feminist site. “This means that young/liberal feminists often confuse critiques of things like objectification, pornography, representations of women in pop culture, prostitution, etc., as ‘attacking other women’s choices’ and as therefore out of bounds.”

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  5. #33
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    gingerkat you have taken the words right out of my mouth. I think too many people put too much importance on what strangers say online, and the comments re Lindsey lohans finger, disgusting. I also think "judgements" are part of our survival mechanism, We need to assess a situation or a person, sometimes for our own protection. Sharing our 'judgements', needs to be done with discretion. I agree, we can discuss topics and not make personal attacks on people. marie.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meg2 View Post
    I'm just going to respond to this idea of feminism being all about choice with a quote from one of Delirium's earlier posts on this thread. Choices aren't made in a vacuum and critiquing the way women are expected to modify their appearance in modern society isn't the same as attacking women who present themselves this way.

    “Many third wave and liberal feminists have confused ‘personal choice’ with liberation, forgetting that liberation for women should be about collective liberation and really has very little to do with women’s individual, personal choices,” says Meghan Murphy, founder of Feminist Current, a Canadian feminist site. “This means that young/liberal feminists often confuse critiques of things like objectification, pornography, representations of women in pop culture, prostitution, etc., as ‘attacking other women’s choices’ and as therefore out of bounds.”
    I understand that, but I'm speaking on an individual level. Some hardcore feminists fail to accept that an individual is doing something because she wants to. It's everywhere. If I were to say to one that I shave my underarms because it feels more comfortable, it wouldn't be an acceptable answer to them - according to them I'm actually doing it because that's what society expects women to do.
    Last edited by atomicmama; 04-10-2016 at 12:32.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmama View Post
    I understand that, but I'm speaking on an individual level. Some hardcore feminists fail to accept that an individual is doing something because she wants to. It's everywhere. If I were to say to one that I shave my underarms because it feels more comfortable, it wouldn't be an acceptable answer to them - according to them I'm actually doing it because that's what society expects women to do.
    This is because (and not necessarily saying this is be case with you) many women claim these things are their choices but in reality they are just oblivious to the fact that years and even generations of social conditioning are at play.

    Would you feel shaving is more comfortable if you had never shaved before and didn't have the stubble re growth? If models on magazines had big hairy armpits?

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    This is because (and not necessarily saying this is be case with you) many women claim these things are their choices but in reality they are just oblivious to the fact that years and even generations of social conditioning are at play.

    Would you feel shaving is more comfortable if you had never shaved before and didn't have the stubble re growth? If models on magazines had big hairy armpits?
    Sure, social conditioning would come in to play for many things, but it's not exclusively the reason why people can do things.

    I started shaving because it was uncomfortable and it was better once I started, so yes...

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    I feel like the 'social pressure to conform to society's expectation of women' is being made out to be a bigger deal than it is, well in my world anyway. Some women are very much into fashion, etc (it's like their hobby), some are not. Some wear lots of makeup all the time, some never and others on special occasions only. Men also go to differing lengths with their appearances - aftershave, hair gel, clothing etc. Who cares?! So long as people have decent personal hygiene and are wearing occasion appropriate clothing I really don't care and neither do my friends, family or work colleagues. I have never heard them comment on anyone's appearance unless someone was wearing something clearly inappropriate (eg. sports wear to a corporate office meeting) or it was a positive comment.

    Or maybe I live under a rock.

    As for not criticising other women, I prefer to criticise people on a case by case basis rather than let gender, race, religious affiliation, etc get in the way. It seems sort of sexist to only critique men..?!

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  14. #38
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    Why do most men not feel underarm hair is uncomfortable?
    Last edited by VicPark; 04-10-2016 at 20:26.

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    The thing is, we can't change history and that social conditioning has happened. So when do you draw a line and finally acknowledge women are making their own choices and not just acting like sheep? When do you give us our power back and accept that maybe we are actually doing something because we want to?

    Boys and girls are different, we react differently to many different things, not just because of social conditioning.

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    I feel like the latest trend these days is to be anti-conformity or hipster of whatever you want to call it. Which is just another form of socialisation in my view.

    Is socialisation really that bad (note: I don't think social conditioning is really the issue here - we aren't living in brave new world).

    It's natural to follow the culture around you, whatever that may be. And if you want to swim against the tide, then do that! Neither one is wrong.

    In the Middle Ages people didn't take showers and they used to burn midwives for witchcraft. Societal values and norms change, attitudes change, people evolve. I don't see the problem with women shaving their armpits because they've been "socially conditioned" to want to do that. If they do it despite their wishes, just in order to conform, then yeah, I feel sorry for them. But I can't imagine there are many women out there who grudgingly shave their armpits. Most people just do what makes them comfortable. And if following social trends or norms makes someone feel comfortable then who cares? You wouldn't walk around naked in the streets just because you don't want to follow social norms or be a victim of social conditioning, right?

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