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  1. #261
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    I just have one more thought to add and then I'm going to hopefully move on.

    In regards to the comments that we're not letting the conversation move on, only focusing on the *few* negative things that were said, etc. My thoughts are this, why do we automatically feel the need to criticize another woman in a thread where that wasn't even the topic? I saw you started a sisterhood thread delirium with the thought that there is some sort of sisterhood where we are not allowed to criticize other women...really? Because I think women are often much nastier to each other than men are. We constantly judge and put other women down whether it is in regards to their appearance, how they mother, etc. My point in this discussion is why do we do that? Why, when the discussion started has nothing to do with that do we still turn in that direction and find something to criticize? To me, how women typically react to each other and treat each other when another woman holds different values is just as important a discussion as the effects of the beauty industry. How can we teach our daughters to respect themselves and subsequently others if the example we show is automatically needing to make unkind comments about somebody? That's been my stance this whole thread. You can keep saying, but the conversation has moved on, but has it? To me it seems like others have pretty much been saying 'but it doesn't matter if we are unkind or disrespectful because what we are trying to discuss is a much bigger issue.' That just doesn't make sense to me and why probably many of us are not taking on bored your (general) argument. You can't start a discussion about the dangers of the beauty industry by automatically criticizing somebody's looks, it just makes the rest of us think that side of the discussion is automatically hypocritical.

    Anyways, times to move on!

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I don't disagree. But it's interesting because my frustration is with strength. 2 years ago I decided I was sick of being physically weaker so started crossfit. I now train 5 times a week, do hot yoga twice a week and Pilates once a week. That's my way of showing my 3 daughters I can be strong.

    I don't feel sad though for women who choose to not strength train. That would be ridiculous. I find it an odd choice of words to say you feel sad for women who wear make up.
    See, I don't perceive strength training as something women are subtly sent the message all their life that they are supposed to do. In the case of makeup I have had induction training for jobs and been told that makeup for women is a uniform requirement, so it's not even subtle sometimes. Your perception may be different to mine though, we are all individuals after all.

    I actually do feel a bit sad for any person who doesn't or cannot make time to look after their health, such as by exercising. I include myself in that group as I have not been making time for exercise and I am completely fine with someone else saying THAT makes them sad - because we're not talking about a gendered issue here. Health applies as much to men as women.

    If, on the other hand, they said they felt sad for me because not looking after my body means I'm currently a size 16 and can't enjoy all the latest fashions - yes, I'd take issue with that.

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  5. #263
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    Holly I think maybe our disagreement stems from what we define as nasty. Saying some is skeletal and yuck probably is nasty. Saying you can't stand someone bc they come off conpletely obsessed with their looks and themselves. No I don't. People don't have to agree with that assessment but I consider it an opinion steeped in some level of fair observation. And this is where my thread stemmed from. Is any level of criticism deemed nasty bc a woman said it to another woman? I wonder if
    a guy saidthe same thing about Judd wouldhe also get the jealous and catty tags?
    Last edited by delirium; 04-10-2016 at 06:10.

  6. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretched View Post
    See, I don't perceive strength training as something women are subtly sent the message all their life that they are supposed to do. In the case of makeup I have had induction training for jobs and been told that makeup for women is a uniform requirement, so it's not even subtle sometimes. Your perception may be different to mine though, we are all individuals after all.

    I actually do feel a bit sad for any person who doesn't or cannot make time to look after their health, such as by exercising. I include myself in that group as I have not been making time for exercise and I am completely fine with someone else saying THAT makes them sad - because we're not talking about a gendered issue here. Health applies as much to men as women.

    If, on the other hand, they said they felt sad for me because not looking after my body means I'm currently a size 16 and can't enjoy all the latest fashions - yes, I'd take issue with that.
    I see our being the "weaker sex" a constant message. Horses for courses. I will be encouraging my girls to be fit and strong and I am leading by example. You are doing what's important to you. Shouldn't that be enough?

  7. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Holly I think maybe our disagreement stems from what we define as nasty. Saying some is skeletal and yuck probably is nasty. Saying you can't stand someone bc they come off conpletely obsessed with their looks and themselves. No I don't. People don't have to agree with that assessment but I consider it an opinion steeped in some level of fair observation. And this is where my thread stemmed from. Is any level of criticism deemed nasty bc a woman said it to another woman? I wonder if
    a guy saidthe same thing about Judd wouldhe also get the jealous and catty tags?
    Del a couple of super quick thoughts

    I doubt a man would use that sort of phrase about a person they don't know personally or only from social media

    How have you formed that impression of her? Honestly as someone not in Victoria outside of her Instagram I get no exposure to her at all. Just curious how you know she's self absorbed outside that forum?

  8. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Holly I think maybe our disagreement stems from what we define as nasty. Saying some is skeletal and yuck probably is nasty. Saying you can't stand someone bc they come off conpletely obsessed with their looks and themselves. No I don't. People don't have to agree with that assessment but I consider it an opinion steeped in some level of fair observation. And this is where my thread stemmed from. Is any level of criticism deemed nasty bc a woman said it to another woman? I wonder if
    a guy saidthe same thing about Judd wouldhe also get the jealous and catty tags?
    I have agreed with you I think, when I've given examples of the nasty comments, it's been what you describe, not the not standing someone obsessed with their looks. I also don't think anyone in this thread has called anyone jealous and because that keeps being brought up it keeps making me feel that the genuine point some of us are making is being missed. I tried to explain it in my last post, why do we automatically go to criticize? Because that's what happened in this thread, it turned to criticizing her looks and calling her fake rather than following the actual subject of the thread almost instantly. Why do women do that to each other and feel it's ok? I think that's an important discussion just as much as the dangers of the beauty industry.

    I actually thought of a good example last night. Growing up my mom was always tiny, petite with a very fit body, always wore makeup and did her hair. She cared a lot about her body and was very pretty (how I feel about that is another thread). But, one day when I was nine I forgot my lunch for school and my mom dropped it off at my class on her way to the gym. She was in her gym gear, tights and a crop top and her make up and hair was done. After she walked out another girl in my class looked at me and said 'your mom looks like a prostitute.' I was so embarrassed, I genuinely never wanted my mom to come to my school again after that. Where do you think that little girl learned to speak like that about somebody else's appearance? I would harbor a guess from her own household, that judging people like that was acceptable. This is what I am trying to get across, that just as the beauty industry can be harmful to girls, our judgement and comments can be as well.

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  10. #267
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    Also del, this article popped up in my FB feed and I thought you would find his comments at the end interesting.

    http://wapo.st/2dzFfKg

  11. #268
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    Default For those not sure about having a third....

    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    Also del, this article popped up in my FB feed and I thought you would find his comments at the end interesting.

    http://wapo.st/2dzFfKg
    Wow! Some hideous comments there! I think it is important to distinguish however the difference between trolling on Twitter with hash tags (so searchable by literally billions of people) and making such horrible comments and say having a respectful discussion on a website like Bub in regarding the 'suitability' of posting things on Twitter / FB / Insta than you're wearing $10m dollars worth of jewellery.

    The former is done out of hate and spite, and for attention, our conversation however would be (mostly) respectful (to each other at least) and would be more about assessing the actions of another human being and what we would have done in a situation, how that would effect our families and our kids if that were us.

    The former is just not on, the latter - totally acceptable IMO.

    So just like in this thread, something like saying yuk and skeletal etc are a direct insult to her appearance where as comments about the image of a (potentially) made up mother placing filters over an image very soon after birth perpetuating an industry many despise is also two very different things. The former is rude and judgemental, the latter is more of an assessment of bigger issues and is based more on those people's personal experience with the beauty industry. I may not agree with those comments but I still think they are valid in a discussion / debate about the beauty industry which lets face it should have been carried over to a new thread..... The potential of having a whoopsie baby number 3 and finding out its whoopsie baby number 4 is my absolute worst nightmare, note to self must remember to take pill tonight
    Last edited by A-Squared; 04-10-2016 at 18:19.

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  13. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Squared View Post
    Wow! Some hideous comments there! I think it is important to distinguish however the difference between trolling on Twitter with hash tags (so searchable by literally billions of people) and making such horrible comments and say having a respectful discussion on a website like Bub in regarding the 'suitability' of posting things on Twitter / FB / Insta than you're wearing $10m dollars worth of jewellery.

    The former is done out of hate and spite, and for attention, our conversation however would be (mostly) respectful (to each other at least) and would be more about assessing the actions of another human being and what we would have done in a situation, how that would effect our families and our kids if that were us.

    The former is just not on, the latter - totally acceptable IMO.

    So just like in this thread, something like saying yuk and skeletal etc are a direct insult to her appearance where as comments about the image of a (potentially) made up mother placing filters over an image very soon after birth perpetuating an industry many despise is also two very different things. The former is rude and judgemental, the latter is more of an assessment of bigger issues and is based more on those people's personal experience with the beauty industry. I may not agree with those comments but I still think they are valid in a discussion / debate about the beauty industry which lets face it should have been carried over to a new thread..... The potential of having a whoopsie baby number 3 and finding out its whoopsie baby number 4 is my absolute worst nightmare, note to self must remember to take pill tonight
    I actually wasn't posting it because of the comments but because of what he says at the end, that people are mocking her brand rather than her as a person. I thought delirium would find that comment interesting.

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