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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by LillyM View Post
    @BlondeinBrisvegas, spot on! My clinic thinks embies are better off in their natural environment, and having only 2 or 3, I admit I'd rather have them put back inside me although it's more a mental thing I reckon.
    I think they do it for the psychological factor as well - nothing worse than going through the entire stim and EPU and have nothing to transfer! Been there at my first cycle and that was a tough one.

    I'm ok with that because cost-wise, it doesn't change a thing so I might as well give it a go. I'm with Primary IVF in Sydney, bulk bill clinic.

    Also FS I think said that the test might damage the embryo which put me off the idea completely. But I'll ask again about it, can't remember the convo well.

    Which is the problem with low cost clinics...they often won't implement a more in depth protocol as they're there to obviously cut costs and save money which is understandable

    P.S...Yep...I took everything on that list..including the aspirin...for the whole time between Cycles 4 and 5.
    Last edited by BlondeinBrisvegas; 30-07-2016 at 07:31.

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  3. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingc383 View Post
    Hi @Caesardust - you mention you have bad eggs. Can I ask how they know this? I'm 39 (40 in a couple of months) and they grade my embryos a B, but they can't tell me if I have bad eggs or not..
    I'm not sure how they really tell but I guess it's because I have had so many failed transfers, my embryos don't make it to blastocyst stage until day 6 if ever and they haven't been of a high grade maybe. At my last FS appointment he just said they're done and moving onto de was the best option. I just believed him as I couldn't afford to keep going with oe due to the financial, emotional and physical strain. I had lost all hope and now some of that hope is back. If you can afford to keep going there's a good chance you will get that golden egg but some people have to be more patient than others and our limits are all different. I really hope you can make it happen with your oe. Xo

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  5. #173
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    @pingc383 This is exactly right to know if you have bad eggs basically you will have a lot of failed transfers where all other testing eliminates everything else so it is a long somewhat windy path. In saying that though I was told even after 8 failed OE transfers of 11 day 5 embryos that I could keep going that I might get there it just depends in how much energy, time and money you have left though. I found the donor egg decision very easy after considering all of that.
    Another factor for bad eggs is not responsive to EPU. So basically stimming repeatedly and getting minimal poor quality eggs in saying that though some women do eventually get the one golden egg. It's not uncommon just another thing that can indicate poor eggs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesardust View Post
    I'm not sure how they really tell but I guess it's because I have had so many failed transfers, my embryos don't make it to blastocyst stage until day 6 if ever and they haven't been of a high grade maybe. At my last FS appointment he just said they're done and moving onto de was the best option. I just believed him as I couldn't afford to keep going with oe due to the financial, emotional and physical strain. I had lost all hope and now some of that hope is back. If you can afford to keep going there's a good chance you will get that golden egg but some people have to be more patient than others and our limits are all different. I really hope you can make it happen with your oe. Xo
    Last edited by Maxwellsmum; 30-07-2016 at 08:26.

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  7. #174
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    How are you travelling @midnite01?

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  9. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxwellsmum View Post
    @pingc383 This is exactly right to know if you have bad eggs basically you will have a lot of failed transfers where all other testing eliminates everything else so it is a long somewhat windy path. In saying that though I was told even after 8 failed OE transfers of 11 day 5 embryos that I could keep going that I might get there it just depends in how much energy, time and money you have left though. I found the donor egg decision very easy after considering all of that.
    Another factor for bad eggs is not responsive to EPU. So basically stimming repeatedly and getting minimal poor quality eggs in saying that though some women do eventually get the one golden egg. It's not uncommon just another thing that can indicate poor eggs.
    @pingc383 i agree with @Maxwellsmum about poor egg quality/poor responder.
    Just because you get good "grades" it doesnt mean the embryos actually are any good. The grades measure how well the embryos progress, i.e. have they divided during the timeframe normally - right number of cells for each day, are the cells similar sizes and % of fragmentation. But these 3 things are the only things they can "see" with a microscope and unfortunately these 3 measures cant tell you whether the embryos are chromosomally normal. So really, they can look great and be graded AA but still not be any good.
    So the way they tell you have poor egg quality is even if you have transferred lots of "good looking-good graded" embryos or "poor graded" embryos but whatever they looked like under the microscope, they didn't result in pregnancy. HOWEVER they never really know, its not like they can test for it without doing pgd, in any definate way. They just conclude, if youve transfered lots of embryos but they never work, then your eggs overall arent likely to be good or get better. Yes, there may be a good few eggs in there somewhere but the drs are basically saying it could take a long time, many cycles and lots of money if you want to keep trying to find a good one. I transfered 6 embies from 4 full cycles, 2 were average graded and 4 were graded good/very good. But none took and if they were chromosomally normal, youd think after 6 tries that at least one of them would have made a baby.
    Being a poor responder means no matter what doses of stim or type of stims you take, you dont get many eggs. 'Normal' responders should produce 10-12 eggs. Poor responders consistently get less. In my last 3 stim cycles i only got 4 eggs each cycle, so 12 eggs in 3 full stim cycles. A normal responder could get 12 eggs just by doing 1 cycle. So they problem with being a poor responder is that your not getting good chances each time you do a cycle. If you have 12 eggs the odds of getting a good 1 are much higher.
    There seems to be a correlation between poor egg quality and a poor response. Many ladies have both. So, it makes it even harder to succeed. 1) you have less good eggs overall and 2) its harder to find them because your only pulling out 4 eggs at a time.
    Someone explained it like this once and it helped me understand:
    Looking for the golden egg is like if you have 100 fish in a barrel. The fish are your eggs. If you have good quality eggs there would be 20 golden fish in there. The other 80 are no good. This is same as normal fertility. I.e. 20% chance.
    If you have poor egg quality, there might be say only 1 - 5 golden fish in there. I.e. 1-5% chance.
    So you will have less chance of having a golden egg overall.
    A round of ivf is like scooping a net into the barrel and collecting a batch of the fish. Normal responders can scoop out 10 fish at a time. So they can find the golden egg faster (less ivf cycles) because after 10 scoops, getting 10 fish each time, thats the whole 100 fish- you would have found the golden egg for sure. Poor responders, only scooping out 5 fish at a time would have to put the net into the barrel 20 times, with 5 eggs each time to scoop out the 100 eggs.
    If that makes sense? The more % of good eggs and the more you can scoop out, the more likely you are to find the golden egg.

    I think of myself as having a small percentage of good eggs in the first place because i have tried naturally for 20 cycles and they got 20 eggs in ivf. So out of 40 eggs, they didnt fertilise or died off in days 1-5 and the 6 embryos i transferred didnt take. So im like none from 40. 40 eggs and not one of them resulted in pregnancy. I dont have blocked tubes so all my natural cycles had no reason not to work. So when i think, in a barrel of 40 fish, ive scooped them all out and not one of them was golden. My other problem with ivf is being a poor responder getting 4 eggs each ivf (which is $$$ and mentally and physically awful) its going to take so much money and pain to keep trying.
    I have endometriosis and the drs say often ladies with endo tend to have poor egg quality. Unfortunately im a poor responder too.
    There is a correlation in that its not usual for a woman to have great quality eggs and be a poor responder. If you are a poor responder, your more likely to have poor egg quality too.
    Wow, what a long posts. I just wanted to try and explain about how the grading system doesnt really tell you much in terms of your egg quality. Only doing lots of transfers and failing will indicate poor egg quality. And only doing lots of cycles and not getting many eggs will indicate poor response. xox
    Last edited by gorgeousgeorge; 30-07-2016 at 09:36.

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  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeinBrisvegas View Post
    My understanding is when they test the embryo's on Day 3 that they run the risk of damaging them more than when they test them on Day 5 as on Day 5 they have more cells to choose from hence lowering the risk of damaging them.

    As I say, one of the Lovelies who have had their embies PGD'd will be able clarify further
    @LillyM - this is correct. Day 5 biopsy has become the preferred process for PGD rather than day 3 as at day 3 there are much less cells and therefore potentially a higher risk of damage. There is a small risk of damage with the PGD biopsy process however it is just that - small - and if a reputable clinic and scientist is doing the biopsy the risk should be minimal. There are risks with many parts of IVF -fertilisation with ICSI also has theoretical risks however most times the potential benefits outweigh the small risks.

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  13. #177
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    @pingc383 my above post, upon reading back sounds a bit morbid. Most specialist will diagnose you as poor quality poor responder after about 4 full stim cycles with low egg numbers and no pregnancy from any embryos transferred. I think thats when they feel they have enough evidence to, rightfully imo, explain to you that ivf is not likely to be a quick and easy solution for you. They WILL let you keep trying though, for as long as you want and many ladies just keep going and they do find that 1 golden egg.
    Like most of the ladies here whove moved on to donor eggs, we just decided that we didnt have the time, money and or mental/ physical strength to keep searching for our own golden eggs. Lots of ladies do persevere and are successful eventually. No one but you will know when its the right time to 'give up' on your eggs.
    And, lovely, if you are only up to your second cycle, you dont have to worry about any of this stuff yet :-) But its good to know anyway, i think. You might find after 4 stim cycles your specialist will start to mention this stuff.
    I hope you get preggers asap and you wont need to worry about any of this xox

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  15. #178
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    And testing the embryos as well as GG mentioned you can place back 10 or 30 embryos that look good to the eye and are graded good but if there is chromosomal issues they will still most likely not implant or end badly. I never had any of my 11 tested but in hindsight I bet that if I had of they wouldn't have made the grade. The testing is exspensive but after 8 cycles the money saved on wasted transfers would have out numbered the money spent I think.
    GG you story is sort of similar to mine I think we are the same age too except I always produced between 9 and 15 eggs at pick up so no issues with responding and I never had any other issues before this year either. Well other than the usual drinking too much, partial to eating too much chocolate and the usual things like constant bad regrowth, always 20kg or so to shift that never seems to shift
    Quote Originally Posted by gorgeousgeorge View Post
    @pingc383 i agree with @Maxwellsmum about poor egg quality/poor responder.
    Just because you get good "grades" it doesnt mean the embryos actually are any good. The grades measure how well the embryos progress, i.e. have they divided during the timeframe normally - right number of cells for each day, are the cells similar sizes and % of fragmentation. But these 3 things are the only things they can "see" with a microscope and unfortunately these 3 measures cant tell you whether the embryos are chromosomally normal. So really, they can look great and be graded AA but still not be any good.
    So the way they tell you have poor egg quality is even if you have transferred lots of "good looking-good graded" embryos or "poor graded" embryos but whatever they looked like under the microscope, they didn't result in pregnancy. HOWEVER they never really know, its not like they can test for it without doing pgd, in any definate way. They just conclude, if youve transfered lots of embryos but they never work, then your eggs overall arent likely to be good or get better. Yes, there may be a good few eggs in there somewhere but the drs are basically saying it could take a long time, many cycles and lots of money if you want to keep trying to find a good one. I transfered 6 embies from 4 full cycles, 2 were average graded and 4 were graded good/very good. But none took and if they were chromosomally normal, youd think after 6 tries that at least one of them would have made a baby.
    Being a poor responder means no matter what doses of stim or type of stims you take, you dont get many eggs. 'Normal' responders should produce 10-12 eggs. Poor responders consistently get less. In my last 3 stim cycles i only got 4 eggs. So they problem with being a poor responder is that your not getting good chances each time you do a cycle. If you have 12 eggs the odds of getting a good 1 are much higher.
    There seems to be a correlation between poor egg quality and a poor response. Many ladies have both. So, it makes it even harder to succeed. 1) you have less good eggs overall and 2) its harder to find them because your only pulling out 4 eggs at a time.
    Someone explained it like this once and it helped me understand:
    Looking for the golden egg is like if you have 100 fish in a barrel. The fish are your eggs. If you have good quality eggs there would be 20 golden fish in there. The other 80 are no good. This is same as normal fertility. I.e. 20% chance.
    If you have poor egg quality, there might be say only 1 - 5 golden fish in there. I.e. 1-5% chance.
    So you will have less chance of having a golden egg overall.
    A round of ivf is like scooping a net into the barrel and collecting a batch of the fish. Normal responders can scoop out 10 fish at a time. So they can find the golden egg faster (less ivf cycles) because after 10 scoops, getting 10 fish each time, thats the whole 100 fish- you would have found the golden egg for sure. Poor responders, only scooping out 5 fish at a time would have to put the net into the barrel 20 times, with 5 eggs each time to scoop out the 100 eggs.
    If that makes sense? The more % of good eggs and the more you can scoop out, the more likely you are to find the golden egg.

    I think of myself as having a small percentage of good eggs in the first place because i have tried naturally for 20 cycles and they got 20 eggs in ivf. So out of 40 eggs, they didnt fertilise or died off in days 1-5 and the 6 embryos i transferred didnt take. So im like none from 40. 40 eggs and not one of them resulted in pregnancy. I dont have blocked tubes so all my natural cycles had no reason not to work. So when i think, in a barrel of 40 fish, ive scooped them all out and not one of them was golden. My other problem with ivf is being a poor responder getting 4 eggs each ivf (which is $$$ and mentally and physically awful) its going to take so much money and pain to keep trying.
    I have endometriosis and the drs say often ladies with endo tend to have poor egg quality. Unfortunately im a poor responder too.
    There is a correlation in that its not usual for a woman to have great quality eggs and be a poor responder. If you are a poor responder, your more likely to have poor egg quality too.
    Wow, what a long posts. I just wanted to try and explain about how the grading system doesnt really tell you much in terms of your egg quality. Only doing lots of transfers and failing will indicate poor egg quality. And only doing lots of cycles and not getting many eggs will indicate poor response. xox

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  17. #179
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    I thought your post was really good. I wish I had read it two years ago when I was up to cycle 3 or 4 you explained it better than most of the doctors ever do
    Quote Originally Posted by gorgeousgeorge View Post
    @pingc383 my above post, upon reading back sounds a bit morbid. Most specialist will diagnose you as poor quality poor responder after about 4 full stim cycles with low egg numbers and no pregnancy from any embryos transferred. I think thats when they feel they have enough evidence to, rightfully imo, explain to you that ivf is not likely to be a quick and easy solution for you. They WILL let you keep trying though, for as long as you want and many ladies just keep going and they do find that 1 golden egg.
    Like most of the ladies here whove moved on to donor eggs, we just decided that we didnt have the time, money and or mental/ physical strength to keep searching for our own golden eggs. Lots of ladies do persevere and are successful eventually. No one but you will know when its the right time to 'give up' on your eggs.
    And, lovely, if you are only up to your second cycle, you dont have to worry about any of this stuff yet :-) But its good to know anyway, i think. You might find after 4 stim cycles your specialist will start to mention this stuff.
    I hope you get preggers asap and you wont need to worry about any of this xox

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  19. #180
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    @gorgeousgeorge - this is a good post! I had 7 blasts in total PGD tested and many of them were "good grades" but yet when tested 6 out of the 7 were chromosomally scrambled.

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