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  1. #11
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    It makes me so sad to think about how humans are messing up the planet for every other species. I kind of feel like if it were only oyrselves that we were destroying, then it would be terrible, but somehow a fair cop. Unfortunately, in the process we're putting every other sentient species on the line.

    I just can't comprehend why so many people feel like humans are somehow more important, and more entitled than every other being, and that it's okay for us to wreak environmental devastation and multiply out of control. I strongly believe that we should be aiming for negative human population growth - no more than one child per person. On a planet with finite resources, we simply can't continue to grow ad infinitim - we will hit a brick wall sooner (I fear) or later.

  2. #12
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    Ok, so I'm an optimist.

    No, eternal economic growth in our current standard industries is not sustainable. We have learnt this, we can see it with the pollution of people and the planet. Consumers and so, manufacturers are making a move toward "greener" choices with organic farms and food supplies, clothing, even toys and such. Industry that is sustainable, like carbon neutral manufacturing and moves toward solar power and using renewable material wood instead of plastic, is all happening and in major development. "Green living" is everywhere. There is a lot of power in the hands of people (consumers). If you don't like polluting the planet, or using plastics, or throwing stuff into landfill, try to do it as little as possible, and importantly, we need to talk to our kids about it and model good habits.
    This is all positive and awesome.

    I really believe we can change. Will we, in time to save the planet and ourselves? Well I guess we are still living that reality. It's that old Chinese curse/proverb again. "May you live in interesting times".

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
    I strongly believe that we should be aiming for negative human population growth - no more than one child per person. On a planet with finite resources, we simply can't continue to grow ad infinitim - we will hit a brick wall sooner (I fear) or later.
    I feel it's more about what a family chooses to buy/eat/wear and their lifestyle than how many children they have. Does a wealthy family with a private jet, throwaway lifestyle and multiple cars/dwellings/products (ok, I'm thinking Kardashians here ) use the same amount of resources as a carbon neutral, second hand buying, food growing family? I think "stable population" parties are very one eyed on this.

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    I feel it's more about what a family chooses to buy/eat/wear and their lifestyle than how many children they have. Does a wealthy family with a private jet, throwaway lifestyle and multiple cars/dwellings/products (ok, I'm thinking Kardashians here ) use the same amount of resources as a carbon neutral, second hand buying, food growing family? I think "stable population" parties are very one eyed on this.
    But you're comparing apples and fire trucks comparing a mega wealthy family with anybody else. In reality comparing 2 similar families one with 1 or 2 children and say one with 4 or more is more relevant. There are numerous studies establishing that the harm done by the larger family is a reality.

    I have 4 kids and it's something I'm immensely aware of.

  7. #15
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    True, but I still think that different lifestyles can account for fewer/more children and the same carbon footprint. That seems indisputable.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BornToBe View Post
    True, but I still think that different lifestyles can account for fewer/more children and the same carbon footprint. That seems indisputable.
    When they are children and living the lifestyle their parents dictate yes. But the children will grow up and may not chose the same lifestyle. And of course they will likely have children themselves.

  10. #17
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    I think people are inherently lazy and selfish. I would love to live a green/clean lifestyle to save the future but it's simply too much effort for me to change the way I live. I'm too comfortable. And hence another reason why major changes that need to happen just won't. We are too comfortable.

    I'm surprised no one has argued about my comment I'm no longer sure multiculturalism works. I was hoping to be jumped on with positivity. Depressing indeed.

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyno1onboard View Post
    When they are children and living the lifestyle their parents dictate yes. But the children will grow up and may not chose the same lifestyle. And of course they will likely have children themselves.
    That is a lot of "what ifs?"

    What if said child grows up to be an environmentalist? What about a life saving surgeon? What about a scientist creating life saving vaccines?

    Also, no one has mentioned the economic impact of shaming people to only have one or two children. People better be prepared to forgo fire services, hospital funding, and social security, because there won't be enough people to support (or pay for) those services.

    Let me be clear- I agree with the environmental concern, what I do not agree with is that it starts with removing personal liberties.

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  13. #19
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    I'm not suggesting people be shamed into having smaller families. Just that people actually recognise what having a large family means and make efforts to live smaller to reduce that impact. The evidence is out there about the damage we do.

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