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  1. #501
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    Default Election 2016

    The coalition was absolutely prepared to negotiate with independents to form government but they soon realised Tony Abbott couldn't negotiate. Rob Oakshott, Tony Windsor and Andrew Wilkie gave their support to Julia Gillard because she had a plan. She was articulate and negotiated well. The best Tony Abbott could come up with when talking to Windsor was "I will do anything, Tony, to get this job; the only thing I wouldn't do is sell my ar$e!" Alarm bells were ringing for Windsor who now didn't trust Tony Abbott after negotiation meetings with him. He realised Abbott's style wouldn't work in a minority government and he believed Abbott's flaws would become more obvious in office. And he was right because look what happened last year. It took 17 days for the independents to decide who to form minority government with, and they saw Gillard as the better option for their electorate. It wasn't a decision they made in haste.

    In 2010, the labor party had 72 seats and the coalition had 73. No clear majority and that just goes to show how professional Julia Gillard was when MP's from conservative electorates chose her because of the way she presented herself and what she had to offer.

    I always laugh at the "minority government" comment because the coalition is 2 or 3 or more parties formed to make government. The liberal party would never gain enough seats alone to win government in its own right. In 2010, the liberal party won 44 seats. The other 29 seats came from the Nationals or LNP of Queensland or the Country Liberals. Even if you include the LNP of Queensland, they still only won 65 seats in 2010.

    And don't get me started on TPV. The coalition governments in the past have done nothing but demonise asylum seekers and Muslims. Children overboard, anyone! It all started there. Sure, come and live in Australia for 3 years, but your family can't come and we will even send you back home. Please! Let's not pretend that the coalition care about asylum seekers. If they did, they wouldn't have used that awful "stop the boats" slogan and changed the name of the government agency to "border protection"

    http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/21704/
    Last edited by BigRedV; 08-07-2016 at 06:43.

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  3. #502
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    Default Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    You really have it in for labor economically don't you? For someone who doesn't want to rehash issues I mean.
    I don't think I "have it in" for labor. I just don't approve of the way they run government, no more than the majority of BH users here disapprove of the coalition.
    Last edited by witherwings; 08-07-2016 at 07:57.

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  5. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    The coalition was absolutely prepared to negotiate with independents to form government but they soon realised Tony Abbott couldn't negotiate. Rob Oakshott, Tony Windsor and Andrew Wilkie gave their support to Julia Gillard because she had a plan. She was articulate and negotiated well. The best Tony Abbott could come up with when talking to Windsor was "I will do anything, Tony, to get this job; the only thing I wouldn't do is sell my ar$e!" Alarm bells were ringing for Windsor who now didn't trust Tony Abbott after negotiation meetings with him. He realised Abbott's style wouldn't work in a minority government and he believed Abbott's flaws would become more obvious in office. And he was right because look what happened last year. It took 17 days for the independents to decide who to form minority government with, and they saw Gillard as the better option for their electorate. It wasn't a decision they made in haste.

    In 2010, the labor party had 72 seats and the coalition had 73. No clear majority and that just goes to show how professional Julia Gillard was when MP's from conservative electorates chose her because of the way she presented herself and what she had to offer.

    I always laugh at the "minority government" comment because the coalition is 2 or 3 or more parties formed to make government. The liberal party would never gain enough seats alone to win government in its own right. In 2010, the liberal party won 44 seats. The other 29 seats came from the Nationals or LNP of Queensland or the Country Liberals. Even if you include the LNP of Queensland, they still only won 65 seats in 2010.

    And don't get me started on TPV. The coalition governments in the past have done nothing but demonise asylum seekers and Muslims. Children overboard, anyone! It all started there. Sure, come and live in Australia for 3 years, but your family can't come and we will even send you back home. Please! Let's not pretend that the coalition care about asylum seekers. If they did, they wouldn't have used that awful "stop the boats" slogan and changed the name of the government agency to "border protection"

    http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/21704/
    Illegal boat arrivals was an issue that had to be dealt with effectively and the Howard government at the time did that. Children overboard was really awful to witness. What about the thousands of children and others who died at sea during the labor government's term between 2007 and 2013? What about the people who burned themselves alive in detention centres? A lot of suffering and loss when that policy didn't need to be changed - yes TPV were not ideal if you were a refugee in Australia who's situation back in your home country changed, but how often did that happen? Meanwhile, those people were able to work here and have access to a range of Centrelink benefits and healthcare. We can criticise the pacific solution until the cows come home but you can't deny that by 2007 there was virtually no asylum seeker issue, and the Rudd government opened the floodgates for people smuggling and all the horror that comes with that.

    You seem to have a very deep insight into the negotiations, articulation and specific comments made in those private meetings between Tony Abbott and the crossbenchers..
    Maybe Abbott wasn't a good negotiator, or maybe he just wasn't willing to concede that much power to random parliament members that didn't have the coalition's voters interests at heart? Who knows?

    As for the coalition being made up of various parties, I don't see what's "funny" about that or why it even needs to be brought up. People know who they are voting for if they vote for a member of the coalition. They know who will be in government and who will lead in that government. They know what policies have been promised. I don't see it being any different to the labor government which is made up of different factions, different members who represent the interests of their specific electorates who all have different local issues that are important to them.

  6. #504
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    Default Election 2016

    The fact that you call them "illegal boat arrivals" says it all. I'm about to head out for the morning so don't have time to respond to the rest of your post but will be back later to reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    The fact that you call them "illegal boat arrivals" says it all. I'm about to head out for the morning so don't have time to respond to the rest of your post but will be back later to reply.
    This. I am on the run too and can't respond fully, but there's nothing illegal about seeking asylum.

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  10. #506
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    Default Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by rainbow road View Post
    I was specifically referring to 2010 onwards as that's when labor governed with a minority government. To be honest I don't remember 2007-2010 well as I spent those three years overseas as an 18-21 year old having lots of fun and drinking way too much. I do however remember labor getting in with a majority so it's not comparable. I was under the impression that labor managed well considering the GFC was going on at the time and they kept us out of recession, regardless of how they did it (spending choices), they did manage it.

    I did say, I think twice, that I wasn't defending labor in my spiel - as a matter of fact, I didn't even vote for them for many reasons of my own - just that it seems like even if the situations end up similar you'll justify them both differently. And that's your prerogative of course.

    The leadership spills in both party were seemly uncanny, although for different reasons, and the results of both elections - in my opinion - are a fine example of democracy allowing voters to express their unhappiness with the quality of the government in both situations.

    I think Labor's was worse and upset people more because it came from within the party and the people felt it was unjust the way Kevin was ousted, especially when they thought he'd done a pretty good job, whereas the majority of people disliked Abbott and supported a leadership change if it meant getting him away from running the country. The disillusionment with the LNP from that change came from Turnbull representing a new kind of liberal leader, someone economically conservative and socially progressive, and ultimately he failed that test because he had too many fat, white, conservative men in the party room to appease.

    As BRV said, the senate may be full of minor parties and be a a circus for the government to deal with but that's the only way the people really have to say "nah sorry government - I don't trust you, and I don't want to make it easy for you." I'm not a fan of Hanson or bloody Fred Nile's party but it speaks volumes if you ask me.

    RE their two campaign messages: I absolutely agree that Labor's Medicare privatisation campaign was a scare campaign and I don't think either side campaigned well at all, however that kind of proves my point that you need to tap into your voters with things that resonate with them. A vague, broad three word slogan doesn't do that and it means nothing to too many people. Medicare is a concrete thing that people understand and appreciate so of course it's going to resonate more with people.
    But you're excusing the failings of labor on the fact that they had a minority government.. And then criticising me for justifying the coalitions failings in the future on having a minority government.

    Firstly, I don't blindly follow or excuse actions that I think are wrong or policies that I think have failed, and I don't have a problem with criticising the coalition. I do it frequently and have even done so in this thread.

    Secondly, you're already predicting they will fail, when (1) the votes haven't all been counted yet so we don't know if it will be a minority government necessarily and (2) your prediction is not based on anything that the coalition have actually done in the last 3 years, only on what labor has done in an apparently similar situation.

    Maybe you're too young to remember it but the labor government did not save us from going into recession. A number of factors contributed to us coming out of the GFC relatively unscathed, most important of which was the healthy state of the economy that the labor government inherited from an 11-year Howard term in government.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...conomic-crisis

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  12. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustJaq View Post
    This. I am on the run too and can't respond fully, but there's nothing illegal about seeking asylum.
    Of course not - but people smuggling is illegal in case you were not aware. If you are a refugee, there are channels to getting asylum, that don't involve spending your life savings and risking your life booking passage on a rickety boat from a country that isn't even your country of origin. Not to mention tossing your passport and other ID documents overboard, after using them to get to Indonesia in the first place.

    If you're a political refugee from Hungary, and you make your way to Serbia, then get on a plane to Australia, how are you fleeing persecution and applying for asylum when you could have stayed in Serbia and done that there? If you're escaping a war zone in Afghanistan and you manage to make your way to Indonesia, how can the boat journey to Australia be justified? You would have had to cross an entire continent before reaching Indonesia, and then spend thousands of dollars to get on a boat to Australia with the expectation of automatic asylum and resettlement.

    I think Australia should take in a lot more refugees. The quota we have in this country is morally criminal. If we had a higher quota, we might not have such a big issue of people smuggling, because I get that refugees wanting resettlement don't want to spend 2 years in a refugee camp living in unbearable conditions without knowing where they will end up. This happened to the Syrians and resulted in a mass exodus from the camps into Europe, with so many tragic deaths at sea. It honestly breaks my heart to think of it.

    I just don't think labor executed their policy correctly. Instead of dismantling the TPV and offshore processing (which was practically deserted at the time anyway), they could have tried passing legislation to allow a higher quota of refugees to enter and created specific bridging visas for people who arrive here by the official channels and have been determined as genuine refugees.

    Like I said before, their ideals were good, their hearts were in the right place, but like a lot of their policies, they were executed badly.

  13. #508
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    @witherwings did you ever watch "go back to where you came from" about the reality of those "legal channels" for refugees?

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    While I don't believe the ALP have all the answers in regard to refugees (the detention centres are inhuman), the Libs hardly have policy that can be considered humanitarian. Turning back rickety boats already hundreds of kms on their journey back to the place they are running from with a 'not our problem' stance is hardly decent.

    And the govt having to bow to public pressure to take Syrian refugees that were dying and starving was awful.

    The 2007-10 period was actually a really successful one for Australia. We were in the top 5 nations in the world to recover from the GFC. The Libs like to go on about the debt, but their proposal was actually 90% of the cost of the ALP's package, but instead of everyone benefiting, it was only tax cuts for middle to high income. I wasn't overly a Gillard fan, but she ruled under enormous pressures. The GFC, Rudd, a minority govt.
    Last edited by delirium; 08-07-2016 at 09:58.

  16. #510
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    What about so-called "economic refugees"? Should they be allowed to arrive illegally?

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