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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondeinBrisvegas View Post
    Agree with @Maxwellsmum's sentiments...I know @Billie2 from here as well and she really didn't mean it Luv plus she did apologise for jumping the gun so I say lets just leave it at that ok??
    Thanks so much to the ladies that know me. Im so sorry I offended so many people. I was so wrong and shouldn't have said it. Im a d*ck and put my hand up for it. I didn't edit or delete my post because I am not a coward & admitted it was a sh*tty thing to say.

    Going into resuscitation 3dp5dt was pretty rough so I guess I do know about how hard IVF can be. Maybe not financially, but physically, and mentally.

    Take care all xx

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  3. #82
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    Having had the day to think about this, I have slightly changed my tune.

    While I think it was unbalanced, I do see their point of unscrupulous FS who don't explain odds to patients who need things laid out. And continuing to treat patients who truly have no chance, partially at the expense of taxpayers.

    I think a lot of us are very switched on, type A gals. We do out research. We ask the questions. We seek the best. But some people simply do not have the capacity to do so, and those are the people "they" are trying to protect.

    Additionally, I do think a FS has a duty of care. Just because I want something, doesn't mean I should get it. A good FS will let that patient go, likely to a competitor, if they deem it unnecessary.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by J37 View Post
    There is an important philosophy in Medicine which says "First, do no harm".

    So, if the treatment causes "no harm" to the patient, and the patient is aware that the doctor believes said treatment is going to be futile, or of minimal benefit, and the patient gives full informed consent, then the answer is no, there are no professional obligations in place for doctors.

    I do, however, believe there are ethical obligations. I think it is unethical to charge a patient for a treatment a doctor believes is almost certainly going to be futile, even if the patient has given informed financial consent. The doctor should not have to work for free, either.

    In this instance, I personally think that the ethical requirements are for the treating doctor to refer the patient to another fertility clinic and Specialist.

    This is not mandated by law, but I do believe it should be an ethical obligation.

    If I was an IVF patient, it's what I would want from my doctor.

    If I was an IVF doctor, it's what I would do.
    Thanks for your input, @J37. Much appreciated.

  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by lileitak View Post
    I think a lot of us are very switched on, type A gals. We do out research. We ask the questions. We seek the best. But some people simply do not have the capacity to do so, and those are the people "they" are trying to protect.
    .
    I think this is a really good point. Bubhubbers doing IVF seem to be a pretty well informed lot - and even newbies who come on asking questions know that there's lots they don't know, and are trying to better educate themselves.

    The Bubhub-population may not necessarily be representative of the general IVF-population though. People have come on here to learn, share and support. Lots of people probably don't do that - and are just guided by what their doctors tell them, and may not know anyone, in real life, or online, who has done IVF too, so have no one to talk to about it, no one to learn from, don't know the questions to ask, etc. Not everyone is a well-informed patient, able to make the best decisions all of the time.

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  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Danza View Post
    The Bubhub-population may not necessarily be representative of the general IVF-population though. People have come on here to learn, share and support. Lots of people probably don't do that - and are just guided by what their doctors tell them, and may not know anyone, in real life, or online, who has done IVF too, so have no one to talk to about it, no one to learn from, don't know the questions to ask, etc. Not everyone is a well-informed patient, able to make the best decisions all of the time.
    I think you're probably right about this. I know last year when I was pregnant, I was speaking to an ex-colleague who is in her 40s and had been doing IVF to fall pregnant with her second child. I think they were up to something like 9 or 10 unsuccessful cycles. Her FS was the same FS I used to be with (but I switched clinics because I wasn't happy with the care I was receiving from the clinic in general but also specifically from him). I was telling her about how I switched because we weren't happy and I honestly don't think the possibility of switching had ever crossed her mind, even though she didn't love the FS. I doubt they ever consulted another doctor as she was just about done (and I haven't seen her again since then to ask - it's not really something I want to ask over Facebook either!) but I wonder if she would have her much longed for second baby had her FS told her he could no longer help, or if she'd done more research and realised a different clinic may be a better fit. It may not have changed the final outcome of course but I think it shows that not everyone is as well informed as those of us on BH.

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  10. #86
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    As a non-IVFer, I thought it was an interesting watch. It wasn't knocking IVF, and it certainly wasn't intended to lay out the pros and cons. It was specifically looking at how IVF has become big business, and some of the problems that have arisen due to a lack of regulation.

  11. #87
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    Some good thoughts raised here @Tiny Danza and @lileitak maybe us bubhubbers are not like the general population of ladies going through IVF.

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  13. #88
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    I have found it very interesting this week to see different responses of the show. As I said earlier in the thread Wazza laughed at the show refusing to watch it as he knew what was going to be said, he said it was very one sided. My old clinic has posted a message on fb though saying it was a very good show and then said "we are proud to say we follow evidenced based practice and our results reflect that" so they are using it as an advertising ploy!

  14. #89
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    I was chatting to my mum about the show yesterday. It was interesting talking about it and seeing it from her POV as someone who has not been through IVF herself and who also has a medical background (she's a nurse). She didn't think it was unbalanced, simply that the program was pointing out how unregulated the industry is, and that as a result of there not being stricter guidelines around the use of ART/IVF, dodgy clinics and specialists can exist and flourish and take advantage of vulnerable people who are pinning all their hopes on them and will risk their financial freedom and mental health in hopes of achieving their dream of becoming parents. Whereas I'm looking at it through the lens of someone who has gone down that path and been successful, and lucky enough to not experience (too many) of the negatives so I'm seeing it as them demonising IVF. On reflection, the program didn't say that there weren't good specialists or clinics, or that no one is successful - but because of the lack of proper regulation people need to be careful and that currently there's no real way of knowing if a clinic is reputable due to discrepancies in how they report their success rates etc. And I think I'm more ok with the show now than I was when I first watched it.

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  16. #90
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    Yep, that's what I saw too.
    I think with IVF, the public view is usually a very positive (and misleading) one. It can be a difficult thing to talk about openly, and if you talk about the fears/failures/negatives then you'll inevitable get people trying to 'cheer you up' - saying oh it'll work next time etc. that being the case, the view the general population gets is often either from clinics etc. talking up the treatments, or the view that "oh yeah, those people and that couple and that person he heir kids through IVF". You see the successes; the children born; and that's about it. Now anyone who's been through IVF, or has a realistic view of it knows that isn't the case... But when you're not heavily invested in it, it's easy to only see that side. Unfortunately, most people aren't going to know all the nitty gritty until they're desperately relying on it to fulfill their hopes for parenthood. So whilst couples in the thick of it may have a better understanding, many going into it or thinking that it may be a fallback option in future often don't understand the realities of how difficult the process can be, and that not everyone goes home with a live baby.
    Apart from a few brave people, there isn't really anyone else publicly broadcasting the negatives (and realities) of fertility treatments and fertility clinics to a wide audience. I think it's a very important voice to have out there.

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