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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I don't mean to be argumentative however are you sure about that?

    I am big on routine - an outsider might think that about me however if they cared to dig below the surface they would see it couldn't be further from the truth.
    Bc I've had a few all my life and one was my best friend who I saw every day and whom confided every single thing with me.

    Do you not agree *some* is for convenience?

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Bc I've had a few all my life and one was my best friend who I saw every day and whom confided every single thing with me.

    Do you not agree *some* is for convenience?
    Could be - just never seen it myself.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I honestly don't understand the extreme defensiveness. A vast majority of us have repeatedly said we know there is a difference between CIO and CC, that we don't think you are bad mums, that we understand sleep dep. That we are only speaking for our own families. Ironically I think overall there has been more critiquing and criticism of non CC in this, and other threads.

    I used to get really really annoyed with bfing vs formula threads. Especially the PA " you just feel guilty, that's why you are so defensive" pearler. Then one day I had a realisation - I couldn't give 2 craps what some randoms on the net think of me. I stand behind my decisions. Now when I see the back patting and sanctimony of bfers I roll my eyes and chuckle.

    If it works for you, why do you care what others think? Everyone that uses sleep training in this thread says they don't CIO (which I admit I do judge), so the criticism isn't even directed at you.

    As to who the people are that I know who have used CIO - close friends, work mates, acquaintances. Most weren't for mental health reasons but convenience. It was also an inherent belief that kids should fit around adults.
    Extreme defensiveness. Hmm. I would hardly call the responses on the "pro" cc end extreme!

    And even if it was extreme, I could understand why. Like I said in an earlier post, the vitriol and judgement does seem to be more on the "anti" side. I don't want to name names or target anyone but there have been some pretty extreme statements made in regards to parenting choices eg: "why even bother having kids" if you're going to parent them that way etc. I may not decide co-sleeping or rocking my baby to sleep for every single sleep works for me, but you don't see me casting judgment on those that do, or telling anyone that their choices are going to result in psychological damage by making them too attached or less resilient.

    I referenced a Facebook post earlier about sleep school where about 90% of the comments underneath were awful, attacking, highly judgmental and downright nasty towards anyone who a) uses sleep school or b) uses any form of sleep training. And I have to say, almost all of them were women. My comment was along the lines of, maybe if we women all supported each other a bit more and judged each other less, there wouldn't be such confusion about settling our children and some of us wouldn't struggle as much as we have.

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  5. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post

    And even if it was extreme, I could understand why. Like I said in an earlier post, the vitriol and judgement does seem to be more on the "anti" side. I don't want to name names or target anyone but there have been some pretty extreme statements made in regards to parenting choices eg: "why even bother having kids" if you're going to parent them that way etc. I may not decide co-sleeping or rocking my baby to sleep for every single sleep works for me, but you don't see me casting judgment on those that do, or telling anyone that their choices are going to result in psychological damage by making them too attached or less resilient.
    That's the thing though. You haven't passed judgment. But plenty do in regard to gentle sleep techniques. You are making a rod for your back. Your relationship with your husband must be crap, how do you even have sex? (in regards to co-sleeping). You are going to raise a spoiled brat! I could go on and on. It goes both ways.

    I think the majority of posters on both sides have been polite. I've tried to voice my opinions without being nasty or casting judgment.

    It sounds like no one here just dumps their kids in a cot, closes the door and lets them scream. While sleep training doesn't fit with my kids or my philosophy I see a bunch of mums who it has worked for, who still go in and pat, and reassure but to still let them have a little cry.... who love their kids just as much as I love mine.

    It just doesn't instinctly feel right for *me*. And I've explained why. That doesn't mean I think members in this thread are horrible evil mothers. Not even close

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  7. #195
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    Default Controlled Crying study

    Quote Originally Posted by binnielici View Post
    I've seen it. More than once. I have left a person's home in the middle of a meal because the distressed screaming of a newborn for over 30 minutes (she was 5 days old!) made me feel like I was going to vomit. She apparently wasn't due for a feed for another hour and needed to learn.

    I have held a week old baby and instinctively started to rock to be told to stop. The baby will be spoilt. That same baby was sleeping alone in a room downstairs from the family so he would not disturb their sleep at night.

    I have ended long term friendships over people's belief that a baby must be shown who is boss from the day they are born. Who are fed on a strict four hour schedule from birth, who will learn to fit in to their parent's lives.

    None of these people did this to avoid PND, to cope with chronic sleep deprivation, to go back to work, to salvage a fractured relationship - the poor little baby hadn't been around long enough!

    Some of these experiences were before and some after having my first child. I wonder if experiences like this influenced my feelings? I wonder VP because you haven't seen this is this why you were more open to using training for your children?
    This story makes me want to vomit also.. The lack of maternal instinct to want to be next to your newborn every second is beyond callous.. But also deeply concerning. Why would someone like that even have a baby. I want to cry..,

    This is where CIO/CC sleep training books work badly. People get so caught up in what they 'should' be doing that they lose the human element.
    Last edited by amiracle4me; 27-05-2016 at 20:02.

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  9. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by amiracle4me View Post
    This story makes me want to vomit also.. The lack of maternal instinct to want to be next to your newborn every second is beyond callous.. But also deeply concerning. Why would someone like that even have a baby. I want to cry..,

    This is where CIO/CC sleep training books work badly. People get so caught up in what they 'should' be doing that they lose the human element.
    I think the problem is that people do whatever and not what the books actually recommend. Only half **** read stuff. No common sense!

  10. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by amiracle4me View Post
    This story makes me want to vomit also.. The lack of maternal instinct to want to be next to your newborn every second is beyond callous.. But also deeply concerning. Why would someone like that even have a baby. I want to cry..,

    This is where CIO/CC sleep training books work badly. People get so caught up in what they 'should' be doing that they lose the human element.
    I'm sorry to single you out but this post comes right after a discussion on judgment and nasty comments. Saying that someone who chooses a different method of settling than you is "lacking in maternal instinct" and "callous" is unhelpful at best. For all you know this person had every good intention at heart and honestly believed they were doing the right thing for their child.

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  12. #198
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    Default Controlled Crying study

    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post
    I'm sorry to single you out but this post comes right after a discussion on judgment and nasty comments. Saying that someone who chooses a different method of settling than you is "lacking in maternal instinct" and "callous" is unhelpful at best. For all you know this person had every good intention at heart and honestly believed they were doing the right thing for their child.
    As the person who was telling the story ( and was actually present in real life ) also had the same physical reaction I'm not going to apologise.. It was shared openly. It's hardly comparable to responsive settling a 3+ month year old of which is the main vein of this thread and of most of its pro sleep training audience.

    It's also pointless debating as I doubt anyone on this thread has let a 5 day of baby cry for 30 minutes while they ate dinner to 'teach it a lesson'

    Neither of us know the circumstances so both our opinions are moot really..

    And was my comment at anyone on this thread? No.. It was in response to an anecdotal story from outside the forum..
    Last edited by amiracle4me; 27-05-2016 at 23:00.

  13. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngaiz View Post
    I have a two year old that still wakes 2 to 12 times a night (gets a little violent sometimes) and I am now at a point where I'm trying to convince myself that sleep school isn't as bad as I think it may be. I just keep hoping that tonight will be the night she starts sleeping through or at least goes back to sleep easily.

    My main concern with sleep training isn't emotional or attachment but the long term effects of elevated Cortisol.
    I haven't read the rest of the thread so I apologise if this has been said - Lack of sleep also causes elevated Cortisol both baby and parent waking multiple times per night is suffering this long term. A few days/weeks of sleep training (and more crying) can fix the issue and there would be no long-term effects of elevated Cortisol. That's another way you could look at it.

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  15. #200
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    Default Controlled Crying study

    Quote Originally Posted by amiracle4me View Post
    As the person who was telling the story ( and was actually present in real life ) also had the same physical reaction I'm not going to apologise.. It was shared openly. It's hardly comparable to responsive settling a 3+ month year old of which is the main vein of this thread and of most of its pro sleep training audience.

    It's also pointless debating as I doubt anyone on this thread has let a 5 day of baby cry for 30 minutes while they ate dinner to 'teach it a lesson'

    Neither of us know the circumstances so both our opinions are moot really..

    And was my comment at anyone on this thread? No.. It was in response to an anecdotal story from outside the forum..
    It's not your physical reaction that I took issue with. You're entitled to react that way. It was your comments about that person being "callous" and shouldn't have children etc.

    Anyway I'm not looking for an apology but wanted you (and others) to think twice before spouting off nasty unhelpful comments about parenting choices different from your own. Feeling physically unwell = fair enough. Calling someone callous and lacking in maternal instinct, saying they shouldn't have kids? Not ok.

    The OP did say they wanted opinions from 'both sides'. I agree with @delirium that most comments have been respectful but it's things like this which is polarising and potentially damaging to mums who might come on here to seek help or advice when they are feeling vulnerable. And potentially stop people from seeking support when they are depressed. As I've said earlier I have PND (and do a very good job of hiding it from people around me IRL) and it's closely related to DS being unsettled and overtired and one of the best (only?!) strategies that has worked for our family is to leave him cry/grizzle for a bit. To think that someone in my support network might come over and think that I'm an unfit parent for using this approach frankly makes me want to isolate myself even more than I already am, thus further contributing to my PND.

    Clearly this is an issue that's way too close to home for me. I'm out.
    Last edited by MsViking; 28-05-2016 at 04:15.


 

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