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  1. #181
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    Default Controlled Crying study

    Quote Originally Posted by binnielici View Post
    I've seen it. More than once. I have left a person's home in the middle of a meal because the distressed screaming of a newborn for over 30 minutes (she was 5 days old!) made me feel like I was going to vomit. She apparently wasn't due for a feed for another hour and needed to learn.

    I have held a week old baby and instinctively started to rock to be told to stop. The baby will be spoilt. That same baby was sleeping alone in a room downstairs from the family so he would not disturb their sleep at night.

    I have ended long term friendships over people's belief that a baby must be shown who is boss from the day they are born. Who are fed on a strict four hour schedule from birth, who will learn to fit in to their parent's lives.

    None of these people did this to avoid PND, to cope with chronic sleep deprivation, to go back to work, to salvage a fractured relationship - the poor little baby hadn't been around long enough!

    Some of these experiences were before and some after having my first child. I wonder if experiences like this influenced my feelings? I wonder VP because you haven't seen this is this why you were more open to using training for your children?
    I've seen this too and been told in contrast that my own baby was spoilt because he was demand fed and rocked/sung to/cuddled etc and that he "needs to learn". It probably has strengthened my view on sleep training and made me want to go the other way.

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  3. #182
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    Leaving babies to cry is not new. When you read the classics there are sometimes references to babies crying for long periods. When my mother began midwifery babies were put down and left to self settle as newborns. I asked my mum if they screamed and she has no recollection of babies crying for long periods.

    I think it changed in the late 60s early 70s and then has reverted back as family dynamics changed and more women worked outside the home.

    I still think we're in this mess because of forcing babies into sleeps positions they hate. Tummy or side sleeping was how it was done for years and babies generally slept better. I'm not advocating throwing the sids guidelines away. It's just my personal view.

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  5. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Who are these parents? What do they do before trying cc/CIO? How do they implement cc/CIO (length, duration) and what do they tell you their reasons are?

    Do you count sleep training as a preventative measure to getting a solid nights sleep so you DONT spiral into a pit of sleep deprivation, PND and medication ....... as being convenience and parent centred?
    - Is it convenience and parent centered to sleep train before one crashes ..... Yet totally understandable to do it after one crashes?


    As the old saying goes - IMO prevention (sleep training) is better than cure (all that is involved in tackling the black fog of depression).
    ^^^^^^ This x 1000. Thankyou.

  6. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Leaving babies to cry is not new. When you read the classics there are sometimes references to babies crying for long periods. When my mother began midwifery babies were put down and left to self settle as newborns. I asked my mum if they screamed and she has no recollection of babies crying for long periods.

    I think it changed in the late 60s early 70s and then has reverted back as family dynamics changed and more women worked outside the home.

    I still think we're in this mess because of forcing babies into sleeps positions they hate. Tummy or side sleeping was how it was done for years and babies generally slept better. I'm not advocating throwing the sids guidelines away. It's just my personal view.
    This is totally true too. The back sleeping thing is relatively new.

    We were all put on our tummies as babies, because we slept better that way. If you read into SIDS articles that's actually half the reason they say don't put babies on their tummies, they sleep deeper and longer (and therefore potentially can't rouse themselves from sleep when they need to).

    Not saying we should all ignore sids guidelines either. But our generation have waaaaayyy more trouble getting our babies to sleep (and stay asleep) than our parents generation (in general). All the guidelines, help books, judgement/advice from others all contributes IMO, we don't trust ourselves because we 'should' or 'shouldn't' be doing this/that. No wonder we are such an anxious bunch.

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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine Grace View Post
    I know two families who have done strict CIO before 6 months, one at 6 weeks. It was extremely distressing going over there for visit, trying to drink my cup of tea while I can hear the 6 week old screaming in his cot but they don't go get him till right on the hour for his bottle, all I wanted to do was run in and grab him. He would be red faced, crying tears., obviously distressed. Same as another family at 3 months, it was done so they could get their schedule back, baby would go in his cot at night in the dark and cry himself to sleep.

    What I hate is when they then brag 3 weeks later that it's "worked" and I need to do it with my child. All that baby learnt is that there is no point crying because no one is coming.

    I totally get sleep deprivation because I have a terrible sleeper and I get that everyone has to do what works for them. Some people though, still do old school CIO for their own needs, not for the baby.
    Wtf? That sounds absolutely awful. I would literally refuse to come to their house after that.

    I've never even considered a routine for a 6 week old. They're still newborn. They don't need sleep training. Sorry if I'm being judgemental here (I know I am) but what you described your friend doing is absolutely cruel and awful.

    I don't know anyone who has done this. Yes, sleep training from 12 weeks maybe, but that wouldn't involve leaving a child to cry for an hour! Geezuz just thinking about this is making me sad.

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  10. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by binnielici View Post

    Some of these experiences were before and some after having my first child. I wonder if experiences like this influenced my feelings? I wonder VP because you haven't seen this is this why you were more open to using training for your children?
    I know your question was directed at VP, but I think this is a bit harsh. There is a big difference between sleep training a child and leaving them to cry for any length of time, letting them sleep alone from birth, or refusing to rock them when they are newborn..

    Sleep training doesn't necessarily involve letting a child cry either. There are plenty of methods which involve the parent being with the child and gradually leaving the room, no crying required. I've seen it done successfully and it seemed very gentle to me. We didn't bother sleep training before 12 months because we were happy to put up with whatever was necessary.

    Personally, I was of the opinion (and still live by this motto) that you just do what you need to do until you don't want to do it anymore. For me, this meant boob feeding to sleep until 12 months, rocking in my arms, sleeping in bed with baby, taking him for walks in pram or car rides - whatever it took to get him to sleep, even if that meant a lot of pain and sleep deprivation for me. I'm not saying any of this to get any sort of validation or acceptance. I'm sharing my experience in the hope that other people who are struggling don't feel like suckers for putting up with it, and that those who decided to try sleep training ( in my case, controlled crying) don't feel like failures. You just do what is right and good for you and your child.

    On a side note:The idea that a newborn won't be rocked to sleep makes me feel physically ill.

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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by witherwings View Post
    I know your question was directed at VP, but I think this is a bit harsh. There is a big difference between sleep training a child and leaving them to cry for any length of time, letting them sleep alone from birth, or refusing to rock them when they are newborn..

    Sleep training doesn't necessarily involve letting a child cry either. There are plenty of methods which involve the parent being with the child and gradually leaving the room, no crying required. I've seen it done successfully and it seemed very gentle to me. We didn't bother sleep training before 12 months because we were happy to put up with whatever was necessary.

    Personally, I was of the opinion (and still live by this motto) that you just do what you need to do until you don't want to do it anymore. For me, this meant boob feeding to sleep until 12 months, rocking in my arms, sleeping in bed with baby, taking him for walks in pram or car rides - whatever it took to get him to sleep, even if that meant a lot of pain and sleep deprivation for me. I'm not saying any of this to get any sort of validation or acceptance. I'm sharing my experience in the hope that other people who are struggling don't feel like suckers for putting up with it, and that those who decided to try sleep training ( in my case, controlled crying) don't feel like failures. You just do what is right and good for you and your child.

    On a side note:The idea that a newborn won't be rocked to sleep makes me feel physically ill.
    Woah sorry! Definitely not the way my question was intended (@VicPark).

    I was just wondering if my exposure to that behaviour was part of the development of my parenting strategy. On the opposite side if VP (and perhaps others) had not every witnessed such selfish parent -led behaviour perhaps it leads to being more open minded about sleep training - including those methods which you indicate you have seen which do not result in crying? I'll be honest I've never seen sleep training not result in crying

    I'm not denying what you are saying about gentle methods just trying to illustrate that perhaps what appear to be vastly different experiences of 'sleep training in all its guises' may influence how open we are to trying it?

    Does that make sense?

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  14. #188
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    Honestly I never noticed what other people did until I had my own kids. I couldn't tell you and I have heaps of nieces and nephews so I would have been around them when they were put to sleep. I even babysat for them and still don't remember doing anything other than putting them in cots and walking out (they were definitely not newborns).

    I've seen all sorts of baby related things i don't agree with but like I said earlier I know mainly people with older kids and I couldn't tell you which ones did sleep training or not. They all have battle scars from sleep deprivation in the past (the parents that is) but the kids are all normal, well adjusted kids.

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  16. #189
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    I honestly don't understand the extreme defensiveness. A vast majority of us have repeatedly said we know there is a difference between CIO and CC, that we don't think you are bad mums, that we understand sleep dep. That we are only speaking for our own families. Ironically I think overall there has been more critiquing and criticism of non CC in this, and other threads.

    I used to get really really annoyed with bfing vs formula threads. Especially the PA " you just feel guilty, that's why you are so defensive" pearler. Then one day I had a realisation - I couldn't give 2 craps what some randoms on the net think of me. I stand behind my decisions. Now when I see the back patting and sanctimony of bfers I roll my eyes and chuckle.

    If it works for you, why do you care what others think? Everyone that uses sleep training in this thread says they don't CIO (which I admit I do judge), so the criticism isn't even directed at you.

    As to who the people are that I know who have used CIO - close friends, work mates, acquaintances. Most weren't for mental health reasons but convenience. It was also an inherent belief that kids should fit around adults.

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    Default Controlled Crying study

    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    . Most weren't for mental health reasons but convenience. It was also an inherent belief that kids should fit around adults.
    I don't mean to be argumentative however are you sure about that?

    I am big on routine - an outsider might think that about me however if they cared to dig below the surface they would see it couldn't be further from the truth.

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