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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    No it's probably not a decision that hurts anyone else except perhaps if it puts additional strain on IVF services. But even then I imagine it would be a small number.

    Honestly I think gender preference is incredibly selfish as a parent. But so is having a large family (I have 4 kids so completely agree that having lots of kids is selfish when the world's resources are so depleted).

    So many things we do as parents can be categorised as selfish. Who can say one is ok and another isn't?
    Choosing to have a child is inherently a selfish decision though. How many of us can say we only had children purely for survival of the species? We have children because we want them (for the most part). Then yeah, we could argue people who have more than 1 or 2 are selfish. People who have abortions for lifestyle reasons are selfish. People who have kids but adopt them out are selfish. No one can win, every decision we make has an element of selfishness.

    It's a really subjective topic and I think that's why I'm so keen to hear from people who have gone through profound gender disappointment, so I can see that side of it given I have zero understanding of it.

    I can see why it's not legal but as a very liberal minded person (in its literal sense, not politically speaking) I'm struggling to come up with a valid reason why it shouldn't be legal. The more we make progress in science and technology, the more we are going to challenge the ideas and push the boundaries of what's morally and ethically right. No doubt before IVF became main****** people were having this very discussion about whether we should allow it as a practice.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally1981 View Post
    I don't think you can. I think you just need to trust that anyone who can create a child via a quiet shag will save their money and do it that way, thereby the problem will be confined to those who can afford the privilege.

    As for the general question. I don't like it. I don't think I could relate to anyone who chose to select a gender. However, I'm pro choice in pretty much everything, so I wouldn't want make it illegal.

    Most of the articles I've read about this are by women who want a girl. I think that's my issue. They use words like 'devastation' when discussing their feelings about their healthy boy pregnancies. I read one around the time my little boy died and I wanted to reach through the page and shake the woman.
    I can imagine how disgusting it sounds to women who are desperate for a baby (full stop) to read of women who are devastated to be pregnant with their 2nd, 3rd, 4th son. It does sound very yuck and so ungrateful etc. But you just can't compare your situation to theirs. Whilst logically it doesn't make sense, these are their feelings none-the-less. It doesn't make their feelings less valid because of your fertility struggles. I don't mean that to sound insensitive to you, because your feelings are also 100% valid. But to a woman desperate to have a daughter (for example, their are also many women desperate for a son - I was in that camp), she cannot explain her incredibly strong, innate desire to have a daughter, but when she hears stories of women who battle just to have one healthy child she feels incredibly guilty that she shouldn't feel completely happy and content with her gorgeous brood of boys. And so the cycle of gender disappointment and it's guilt, grief and sadness goes on. The mother ADORES her boys, she wouldn't give one up for the world and loves each and every one of them. And yet her heart aches to have a daughter. Every time a friend/relative has a daughter she is torn with jealousy and cries at night. It sounds over the top but this is a silent reality for many many women. After having my daughter I was so afraid I'd never have a son I would cry whenever a friend had a boy. I never thought I'd be lucky enough to have one of each. I cannot put into words why it was so important to me, it just was. It sounds ungrateful because yes there are women (like yourself) that just want a healthy baby in their arms. But you have to separate the two situations, it's like saying that someone with chronic fatigue syndrome shouldn't be sad that they are sick because they should be grateful they don't have terminal cancer.
    Last edited by GingerKat; 21-05-2016 at 20:26.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by twinklify View Post
    Do you think that family balancing argument can be made for those families that have generations born of the same gender ie. Males.

    As an example could you argue that it is needed for your 1st child to be a female as there have been 5 generations of just males?
    I've no idea really, I don't even know if you need a reason in the U.S. I.e. you need to have a certain number of the same gender.

    I've got 2 boys and frozen embryos. If it was available would i test mine to see if there is a girl in there? Not sure really. I wouldn't personally judge someone who did though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine Grace View Post
    I think in regards to this debate, it's probably likely gender selection for family balancing will be back on the table in Australia in the near distant future. It used to be allowed, and currently the US has pretty strong links with Australian clinics to do it over there.
    It is back on the table now, the ethics board have taken submissions which they are reviewing now. But I just feel like it would never be legislated even if the ethics board recommended it. If we can't even get gay marriage legislated in this country then I don't think gender selection has much hope!

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    Gender disappointment isn't about not loving the kids you have but mourning the kids that you don't have. I do totally get that.

    As someone who had their first baby very easily doing IVF only to massively struggle second time around I hate the term "gratitude" when used in terms of children and families. I used to be told to be grateful I had one when all I wanted was another. It didn't make my sadness any better it only made it worse. It made me feel like an awful person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerKat View Post
    I can imagine how disgusting it sounds to women who are desperate for a baby (full stop) to read of women who are devastated to be pregnant with their 2nd, 3rd, 4th son. It does sound very yuck and so ungrateful etc. But you just can't compare your situation to theirs. Whilst logically it doesn't make sense, these are their feelings none-the-less. It doesn't make their feelings less valid because of your fertility struggles. I don't mean that to sound insensitive to you, because your feelings are also 100% valid. But to a woman desperate to have a daughter (for example, their are also many women desperate for a son - I was in that camp), she cannot explain her incredibly strong, innate desire to have a daughter, but when she hears stories of women who battle just to have one healthy child she feels incredibly guilty that she shouldn't feel completely happy and content with her gorgeous brood of boys. And so the cycle of gender disappointment and it's guilt, grief and sadness goes on. The mother ADORES her boys, she wouldn't give one up for the world and loves each and every one of them. And yet her heart aches to have a daughter. Every time a friend/relative has a daughter she is torn with jealousy and cries at night. It sounds over the top but this is a silent reality for many many women. After having my daughter I was so afraid I'd never have a son I would cry whenever a friend had a boy. I never thought I'd be lucky enough to have one of each. I cannot put into words why it was so important to me, it just was. It sounds ungrateful because yes there are women (like yourself) that just want a healthy baby in their arms. But you have to separate the two situations, it's like saying that someone with chronic fatigue syndrome shouldn't be sad that they are sick because they should be grateful they don't have terminal cancer.
    I don't think of sounds ungrateful at all and I have had recurrent loss and had to do IVF to have children. I hate that women feel like that, of course they love their children but it's not a crime to yearn for the opposite sex than the ones you have. I think it's something you can't understand if you have both genders. If i family with 3 or 4 sons really wanted a daughter, I guess they can currently go OS to do it.

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    I dont really have an issue with it.

    To be honest, the number of people who will put their bodies through IVF (without even considering the cost) just to get a specific gender is in the minority. Its only going to be for those who are desperate for that sex ...

    As long as its not funded by medicare, I have no real issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Gender disappointment isn't about not loving the kids you have but mourning the kids that you don't have. I do totally get that.

    As someone who had their first baby very easily doing IVF only to massively struggle second time around I hate the term "gratitude" when used in terms of children and families. I used to be told to be grateful I had one when all I wanted was another. It didn't make my sadness any better it only made it worse. It made me feel like an awful person.
    I hate it too. Of course a woman with 4 sons is grateful for her children, and wouldn't ever trade them. Doesn't mean she doesn't yearn for a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementine Grace View Post
    I hate it too. Of course a woman with 4 sons is grateful for her children, and wouldn't ever trade them. Doesn't mean she doesn't yearn for a girl.
    Exactly. And it doesn't mean she won't love and parent all of her boys as she would a female.

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    Default Should gender selection for non medical reasons be legal in Australia

    This has actually been a great thread & a really interesting read with varied, and thoughtful opinions.

    As someone who has lost five babies & is still yet to have a child, I would be beyond thrilled to have just one healthy baby of either sex. However this question did come up when DH & I were researching donor options & depending on the circumstances I don't think it's a terrible thing.

    The way I was thinking about it was if I had six quality embryos & was transferring one, would it really matter if the doctor picked one at random or I said "please pop a girl one in"? I don't have problem with that scenario. However if all six embies were boys I'd shrug & laugh & know that I was meant to be raising boys. So that is not really the gender disappointment scenario but if you were already doing IVF then I think having the choice which embie gets transferred first doesn't hurt anyone.

    Undergoing IVF purely for gender selection is a more difficult one but again if someone is willing to put themselves through that & pay for it, then I don't think it's very different from the ethics of IVF right now - embies are going to be discarded in both scenarios, so selecting embie A or embie B due to gender is not a big deal to me.

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