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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by BH-KatiesMum View Post
    Nobody is saying its not a serious mental health issue - for some people it is indeed that - but it isnt a mental health problem for everyone. There are a lot of degrees.

    For the vast majority of people, having some disappointment isnt a mental health issue, it just takes a fair amount of adjustment. For some though, it does indeed create mental health problems that need addressing.

    So yes - it can be both ways. It can be a mental health condition - but assuming that everyone who would prefer a specific gender and would like to be able to choose has a mental health condition isnt good either.

    Some people would like to be able to choose the gender of their baby ... for whatever circumstances ... but it doesnt mean that they need serious help.
    I suppose I've jumped on the GD wagon because they're going to need a diagnosable health issue to get this on Medicare. If not it will need to be self funded, which will make it unavailable to anyone except the rich.

    Now THAT, I have a big problem with. As in, only wealthy people being able to gender select.

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  3. #212
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    I agree with @Kaybaby that anything taken to the extreme is a situation where psychological help is likely necessary and GD to the lengths of aborting a healthy child of the "wrong" sex is where I think psychological intervention absolutely needs to happen. And for anyone wanting to spend a lot of money and invasive procedures to select gender, I think psychological assessment is important to ensure that there are not severe underlying issues that are going to be of detriment to both the children already in the family or the potential child should the parent have totally unrealistic expectations of what the relationship with that child is going to be like.

    I think psychology does come in to play in this issue to some degree or another. For myself I would say it is on the minor end. I had a pretty awful relationship with my mother - she is an undiagnosed possibly BPD or NPD (no diagnosis because there is nothing wrong with her, it's everyone else!) and she abandoned my sister and I quite young, and then turned up in our lives at unexpected intervals to cause massive destruction, then left again.

    I've done tons of therapy over the years and am told I have very high emotional intelligence, and have dealt with a lot of old issues and consider myself a very well balanced individual. Having said that, I do have a desire to have a daughter, and I believe it is purely as a way of continuing to heal old wounds and parent in a way that I would have liked to have been parented myself having been a little girl once. Having said that, I in no way shape or form hold any particular expectation of what that relationship has to look like for me to be happy - as in there would be no pressure whatsoever for that child to be a certain way for me to be fulfilled. I see having the opportunity to parent a daughter as something that *could* be quite healing for me.

    Having said that though, I am mature and psychologically healthy enough to understand that a little boy would likely fulfill me in exactly the same way - so even though I have a very slight preference for a girl, I would be delighted if I was blessed with a little boy. But if I hadn't done a lot of work on myself, *maybe* I would have been someone hell bent on having a girl at all costs as a way of working through issues that should have been dealt with prior to having children.

    I wasn't putting myself up for analysis here, I was just trying to show that unmet needs from childhood could be a factor in people wanting to parent a certain gender, and that I think therapy is a great thing in any of these circumstances to gain a greater understanding of what is driving that need so that psychologically healthy choices can be made.

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  5. #213
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    It's a bit of a hard topic to reply too & I think my opinion on it has been formed due to years & years of infertility. We were incredibly lucky to have our dd through ivf.

    My opinion on it is I'm going to consider myself incredibly lucky if we end up with anymore children & I don't care if any other babies we have are all girls or all boys.

    I believe that when you have children you have them for the people they are & not for a certain gender. If we had the option to have our remaining embryo's gender tested & could pick I still wouldn't do it & wouldn't want too. I would hate to think that a person possibly wouldn't be born due to their gender.

    What if a person went through all the invasive tests, egg collection (in my case got OHSS) then got all male embryos instead of female ones (or other way around). Or only gets one female embryo but it doesn't take during transfer? Would they all be discarded if that person was wanting a girl only? Then what if in the next lot there's hardly any girl ones again? It's just a lot for a person to go through with a lot of things that can go wrong. I couldn't believe when I was doing ivf that people didn't realise it included surgery.

    In saying that though, I don't think I will ever be affected with gender disappointment so I don't know what it feels like for someone who has. Ivf is a lot & very invasive for someone to go through it all when they don't need/require it.

    So it's a hard question. I guess I personally wouldn't chose to do it as I don't believe that it's my place to chose. However I don't know how I feel about others choosing. And even if people do chose their gender I wonder how they would feel for example if they had all boys then selected a girl but the girl wanted to be a tomboy & didn't want to dress up in pretty dresses & do girly things? Or the other way around desperately wanting a boy but then get one that wants to do girly sort of things?

    I'm more interested to see if people who wouldn't ordinarily need ivf would be willing to go through it if gender selection was possible. Ivf affected us greatly financially & I know of a lot of girls who need it to have babies who can't afford it. I really wish that we never needed to go down the path of ivf.

    And I also wanted to say I have nothing against anyone that does want to do gender selection as I haven't walked in your shoes & don't know what the feeling is like to only want a certain gender. So I hope my post hasn't come across the wrong way! So hard to write things sometimes.

  6. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally1981 View Post
    I suppose I've jumped on the GD wagon because they're going to need a diagnosable health issue to get this on Medicare. If not it will need to be self funded, which will make it unavailable to anyone except the rich.

    Now THAT, I have a big problem with. As in, only wealthy people being able to gender select.
    Gender selection would never be funded by Medicare. If the parents were so psychologically disturbed by GD that it was a medical issue then should they even be doing selection?

    I can't see medicare ever funding gender selection.

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  8. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Gender selection would never be funded by Medicare. If the parents were so psychologically disturbed by GD that it was a medical issue then should they even be doing selection?

    I can't see medicare ever funding gender selection.
    Medicare doesn't currently fund PGD which is the genetic testing done in embryo's though. So couples currently doing IVF and doing PGD to try and get normal embryo's to implant would potentially just have the extra option of choosing the gender to implant.

    I guess if someone was doing an IVF cycle purely for gender selection reasons then that wouldn't be funded. I think after watching the last 60 minutes segment on it, they did say that there was a very small number of couples during IVF purely for gender selection.

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  10. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretched View Post
    I know this is potentially opening up a whole other can of worms, but don't the majority of people use pre-natal tests (harmony, NT, CVS) to determine if they will keep the baby?

    It is just my opinion, and I always feel in the minority with this, but I feel that all those tests are the beginning of the slippery slope. Soon more and more 'problems' will become a medical reason to terminate that can be tested for. We're potentially going to be stripping out all our gene diversity.

    Sorry, I know my view upsets people who have chosen to medically terminate for trisomies etc.

    I know that it feels like a bit of a tangent, but many would argue that certain medical conditions create a great financial and emotional strain on families and financial burden on society. Yet in some cultures girl children are seen as a burden, requiring large dowries to be married off etc.

    I struggled reading gender disappointment thread titles while TTC my 2nd with 2 miscarriages along the way. But I am not them, I don't know their journey and what got them to that point. I'm sure many who were struggling to conceive their first thought I should stop sooking and just be happy that I have a child.

    I do like the idea of compulsory counseling to work through the reasons for sex selection. I just don't know who decides what is an appropriate reason.
    Just saw this. I realise you don't want to open up a can of worms but as someone who had a TFMR at 22 weeks I feel I need to respond.

    TFMR is not just an abortion. For a start, most parents at least want an amnio to properly confirm the diagnosis, which makes you at least 15 weeks, which means you're going to have to attend a labour ward at a hospital, get induced like a live birth, go through labour, then deliver your child. If you're really unlucky (like I was), nothing will show up until the 19 week scan. My boy was born alive and died in my arms three hours later. This is a million miles away from an abortion for gender reasons.

    One thing no one understands until they've been through it is that TFMR is a parenting decision. Many people who have done this are people who previously said they never would. That's largely because, once you start going down that long, dark rabbit hole it becomes clear that for many of these conditions, you are going to have to make the decision at some stage. For conditions that are not compatible with life you first have to decide whether to continue with the pregnancy. If you do, you will then be asked whether you want medical intervention to keep them alive after birth. If you say yes, you will need to keep making that decision over and over again until one day you make the decision to withdraw treatment and let your child die. So in the end, you've had to be the one to call it anyway.

    I made that choice at 22 weeks because my boy was likely going to die no matter what I did. I researched everything I could and made the decision at that stage because in two weeks time he would start to form the ability to feel pain and I wanted to spare him that.

    So yes, comparing someone undergoing TFMR to someone aborting a healthy baby due to their gender is upsetting. Very few people who have ever been in the situation where they had to 'choose' ever judge each other for making the opposite choice.

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  12. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally1981 View Post
    Just saw this. I realise you don't want to open up a can of worms but as someone who had a TFMR at 22 weeks I feel I need to respond.

    TFMR is not just an abortion. For a start, most parents at least want an amnio to properly confirm the diagnosis, which makes you at least 15 weeks, which means you're going to have to attend a labour ward at a hospital, get induced like a live birth, go through labour, then deliver your child. If you're really unlucky (like I was), nothing will show up until the 19 week scan. My boy was born alive and died in my arms three hours later. This is a million miles away from an abortion for gender reasons.

    One thing no one understands until they've been through it is that TFMR is a parenting decision. Many people who have done this are people who previously said they never would. That's largely because, once you start going down that long, dark rabbit hole it becomes clear that for many of these conditions, you are going to have to make the decision at some stage. For conditions that are not compatible with life you first have to decide whether to continue with the pregnancy. If you do, you will then be asked whether you want medical intervention to keep them alive after birth. If you say yes, you will need to keep making that decision over and over again until one day you make the decision to withdraw treatment and let your child die. So in the end, you've had to be the one to call it anyway.

    I made that choice at 22 weeks because my boy was likely going to die no matter what I did. I researched everything I could and made the decision at that stage because in two weeks time he would start to form the ability to feel pain and I wanted to spare him that.

    So yes, comparing someone undergoing TFMR to someone aborting a healthy baby due to their gender is upsetting. Very few people who have ever been in the situation where they had to 'choose' ever judge each other for making the opposite choice.
    My heart broke reading that

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  14. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretched View Post
    I know this is potentially opening up a whole other can of worms, but don't the majority of people use pre-natal tests (harmony, NT, CVS) to determine if they will keep the baby?

    It is just my opinion, and I always feel in the minority with this, but I feel that all those tests are the beginning of the slippery slope. Soon more and more 'problems' will become a medical reason to terminate that can be tested for. We're potentially going to be stripping out all our gene diversity.

    Sorry, I know my view upsets people who have chosen to medically terminate for trisomies etc.

    I know that it feels like a bit of a tangent, but many would argue that certain medical conditions create a great financial and emotional strain on families and financial burden on society. Yet in some cultures girl children are seen as a burden, requiring large dowries to be married off etc.

    I struggled reading gender disappointment thread titles while TTC my 2nd with 2 miscarriages along the way. But I am not them, I don't know their journey and what got them to that point. I'm sure many who were struggling to conceive their first thought I should stop sooking and just be happy that I have a child.

    I do like the idea of compulsory counseling to work through the reasons for sex selection. I just don't know who decides what is an appropriate reason.
    I agree with this 100%. I acually came in to this thread earlier, wrote something like this, & deleted it because I could not word it well. I think we have already embarked on the slope of selecting some characteristics of our babies. We test for disability for this very reason. It is also a topic close to my heart, I have a close friend with a little boy wih DS. He is absolutely precious, & it's hard to hear that people feel as if he isn't worthy of life just because of his disability. She knew he had DS when she was pregnant, but she (like myself) wouldn't terminate for any reason. It's a very difficult topic to discuss, because on both sides it is very emotional. And her, me,and you @Stretched are, yes, in the minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheeeeesecake View Post
    I agree with this 100%. I acually came in to this thread earlier, wrote something like this, & deleted it because I could not word it well. I think we have already embarked on the slope of selecting some characteristics of our babies. We test for disability for this very reason. It is also a topic close to my heart, I have a close friend with a little boy wih DS. He is absolutely precious, & it's hard to hear that people feel as if he isn't worthy of life just because of his disability. She knew he had DS when she was pregnant, but she (like myself) wouldn't terminate for any reason. It's a very difficult topic to discuss, because on both sides it is very emotional. And her, me,and you @Stretched are, yes, in the minority.
    Eta - sorry, just read the reply above. I'm sorry for your loss. Absolutely no judgement on people who have had terminations for DS or other reasons. I just do find it such a slippery slope. I feel like I am both 100% pro choice, but also 100% valuing a human life, no matter what. Which doesn't work, because I can't be both. No-one can. I guess if you are truly 100% pro choice,terminating for gender reasons is ok because it is the mothers choice no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    There will be plenty of things you won't be able to relate to your dd about too. It will even out.
    So what? Is it important to you how I relate to my DD, or what it is about?

    I would like to be able to share that with a child of my own- a daughter. Of course there is a chance we won't be close, or that she won't want to know. That's fine. But having a daughter has given me that option.

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