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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdornedWithCats View Post
    According to my brother, hair colour can result in terrible bullying in childhood. But as adults, I don't think people comment on it (men's hair).
    Sadly this is true.

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenmum View Post
    Bit uncertain myself...

    Genuine question -

    PP's have raised the issue of what will happen if an embryo is selected based on the parent's preconceived idea of that gender (eg. Having a girly girl to dress up), and the fallout if the child doesn't live up to those expectations. However, if that parent can't gender select and ends up with gender they didn't prefer, then won't the fallout be somewhat the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by AdornedWithCats View Post




    Not so much my career but in day to day life. I get sick of being defined so superficially. And having to live in the shadow of this fantasy my mum had of having a daughter she could dress in pink. Sigh.

    I just think gender selection is just setting you up for disappointed when your child decides they aren't going to be sterotypical - that's where I find it problematic. It's reinforcing archaic sterotypes. Which plays into the bigger issue that @Sonja has brought up for women who want careers and to be treated equally in the workplace.
    Not trying to single you out, but just saw that your comment echoed some earlier posts, and my earlier response to this argument seems to have been lost amongst the fast pace of posts.

    So just wanted to raise it again as I'm in interested in people's thoughts on this -

    What really is the difference between gender dissapointment from only getting the non-preffered sex, or having a child of the preferred sex who doesn't live up to the gender stereotype?

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenmum View Post
    Not trying to single you out, but just saw that your comment echoed some earlier posts, and my earlier response to this argument seems to have been lost amongst the fast pace of posts.

    So just wanted to raise it again as I'm in interested in people's thoughts on this -

    What really is the difference between gender dissapointment from only getting the non-preffered sex, or having a child of the preferred sex who doesn't live up to the gender stereotype?
    I'm curious about this as well. If my mum wanted a girl so she could bond and have girly chats and hang out like mates, she'd be sorely disappointed! And if my parents wanted a boy so they could get him playing in the local soccer club, hope that he would have mates over for BBQs and be able to help dad around the house, they'd have gotten a raw deal there as well.

    When I think of the reasons why people want a particular sex baby, the reasons are gender related, not sex chromosome related. Gender is such a wide, fluid spectrum of behaviours so I think perhaps this is why I struggle to understand gender disappointment.

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  7. #124
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    The difference is huge imo, but I find it hard in my sleep deprived state to articulate why.

    Maybe someone else can help explain it.

    I was blessed with 2dds and 1ds. I wanted my ds so much (not that I didnt want my dds) it is just different. If he is homosexual, trans, gender nuetral idc. I love him the same and always will. I would have been dissapointed (as shallow as that sounds) with a #3dd.

    He plays with his sisters, dances, chucks tanties the same as any other kid and apart from being a bit of a dare devil doesn't do "boy" play - whatever that is - but plays with and copies the girls in the dirt piles, rides his trike, plays with dolls and climbs stuff.

    I dont think I did a very good job explaining....!
    Last edited by KitiK; 22-05-2016 at 08:01.

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  9. #125
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    Copying and pasting my response from the other thread:

    People have all kinds of ideas about what having a baby or child will be like - regardless of gender - that may or may not turn out to be true. Yes those who want a girl to "dress in pretty clothes" (I'd be surprised if there wasn't more to it than that) might be disappointed if their child isn't into that, but we often project all kinds of ideas and ideals onto our children before having them and I don't see that as being an issue iykwim. I live next to the beach, before having kids I would say how I wanted to bring my babies to the beach and go surfing with them etc etc - so far so good but if one of my kids decides they hate salt and sand it doesn't mean I've had them for the wrong reasons!

    Before having children, and when dealing with recurrent miscarriage and IVF I too felt like even gender swaying was a bit vile. I would have killed for a healthy baby regardless of gender. (Before I had kids I also thought screen time and chicken nuggets were the devil.😏)
    Now I have two gorgeous boys and love them to bits but there is part of me that still wants a girl. I had a boys name and a girls name picked since I was a child and I've used the boys name but the girls name is still kicking around in my head. I read the 'MIL' thread on here and think that I will be fortunate if my future DILs (if my sons are straight/ partnered/ have kids etc) let me near my grandkids.

    In my case I also have 6 frozen embryos from my last cycle of IVF. I'm not keen on travelling to do more IVF when I have these embryos already - for me that wouldn't feel right - but if they're there and some of them might be girls how is it harmful to ANYONE to have them tested and to let me implant a female embryo? I disagree that it's eugenics - sex is binary (even if gender is fluid) so it's nothing like choosing traits according to DNA. And in places where it is legal - such as the US - there aren't issues with uneven population numbers so I don't see that it causes problems there either.

    Also - IMO the 'it's a slippery slope' argument is just as flawed as saying that gay marriage is a 'slippery slope' towards depravity. We're not talking designer babies here - when you have a baby the first question is always 'boy or girl?' Some of us just want to have the opportunity to experience both.

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  11. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenmum View Post
    So just wanted to raise it again as I'm in interested in people's thoughts on this -

    What really is the difference between gender dissapointment from only getting the non-preffered sex, or having a child of the preferred sex who doesn't live up to the gender stereotype?
    In the case my TG nephew. The psychological impact his journey has on the entire family is huge and not isolated to to the parents. It's not only an issue of gender but bullying, ignorance and a sht load if confusion on everyone's behalf. Even to us, his extended family, the reality that something like 80% of TG youth commit suicide is very daunting and we all secretly fear for his future.

    I also had another adult cousin who was brutaly tortured then murdered a number of years ago for being gay, no other reason.

    Gender disappointment generally affects only the parents where not living up to society's expectations of a specific gender has a wider effect on friends, family and community. That is of course until we can instill acceptance and tolerance into future generations.

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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by BettyW View Post
    Copying and pasting my response from the other thread:

    People have all kinds of ideas about what having a baby or child will be like - regardless of gender - that may or may not turn out to be true. Yes those who want a girl to "dress in pretty clothes" (I'd be surprised if there wasn't more to it than that) might be disappointed if their child isn't into that, but we often project all kinds of ideas and ideals onto our children before having them and I don't see that as being an issue iykwim. I live next to the beach, before having kids I would say how I wanted to bring my babies to the beach and go surfing with them etc etc - so far so good but if one of my kids decides they hate salt and sand it doesn't mean I've had them for the wrong reasons!

    Before having children, and when dealing with recurrent miscarriage and IVF I too felt like even gender swaying was a bit vile. I would have killed for a healthy baby regardless of gender. (Before I had kids I also thought screen time and chicken nuggets were the devil.😏)
    Now I have two gorgeous boys and love them to bits but there is part of me that still wants a girl. I had a boys name and a girls name picked since I was a child and I've used the boys name but the girls name is still kicking around in my head. I read the 'MIL' thread on here and think that I will be fortunate if my future DILs (if my sons are straight/ partnered/ have kids etc) let me near my grandkids.

    In my case I also have 6 frozen embryos from my last cycle of IVF. I'm not keen on travelling to do more IVF when I have these embryos already - for me that wouldn't feel right - but if they're there and some of them might be girls how is it harmful to ANYONE to have them tested and to let me implant a female embryo? I disagree that it's eugenics - sex is binary (even if gender is fluid) so it's nothing like choosing traits according to DNA. And in places where it is legal - such as the US - there aren't issues with uneven population numbers so I don't see that it causes problems there either.

    Also - IMO the 'it's a slippery slope' argument is just as flawed as saying that gay marriage is a 'slippery slope' towards depravity. We're not talking designer babies here - when you have a baby the first question is always 'boy or girl?' Some of us just want to have the opportunity to experience both.
    I think I find it hard to understand because I genuinely did not care either way what sex my babies were. In saying that, I'm rapt I got two boys and if I had a third I'd want another boy. That comes from a place of not wanting to raise a girl though rather than really wanting a boy if that makes sense (moot point mind you, as we're not having more!).

    For me choosing sex when you have remaining embryos is not the issue. For me it's about actively creating a boy or girl embryo. But then even as I'm writing this I'm thinking well if you're creating one anyway, what difference does it make whether the extra step is taken to create a boy or a girl?

    Maybe for me it's more I don't understand it and I'd never do it, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal.

    As for the slippery slope argument, there's a huge difference between marriage equality and choosing the sex of a baby. Gay people are not depraved but owning the doors to creating a specific "type" of embryo *could* lead to choices around hair color etc. I think I get what point you were trying to make, but I don't think using marriage equality and depravity was the best way to make it.

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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenmum View Post
    Not trying to single you out, but just saw that your comment echoed some earlier posts, and my earlier response to this argument seems to have been lost amongst the fast pace of posts.

    So just wanted to raise it again as I'm in interested in people's thoughts on this -

    What really is the difference between gender dissapointment from only getting the non-preffered sex, or having a child of the preferred sex who doesn't live up to the gender stereotype?
    Bit different but I know a guy who was adopted. His adoptive parents (country people, farmers) wanted a boy and would only take a boy (gender selection). This guy is not a manly man, no interested in farming, beer drinking or cattle auctions.

    His adoptive father and to a lesser extent his mother forced him into the stereotype they wanted in a son. He was often told he wasn't good enough.

    The impact on him has been massive, while he is extremely successful in his career and very happy in life he is still seen as a massive disappointment.

    This may not always be the case but it's a very good example of what you are suggesting.

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  17. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
    As for the slippery slope argument, there's a huge difference between marriage equality and choosing the sex of a baby. Gay people are not depraved but owning the doors to creating a specific "type" of embryo *could* lead to choices around hair color etc. I think I get what point you were trying to make, but I don't think using marriage equality and depravity was the best way to make it.
    I'm very clearly NOT saying gay people are depraved! My point is that opponents of gay marriage trot out ridiculous lines like that "where will it end, if we can marry someone of the same sex then why not marry an animal or a car?" and similar nonsense. I used that as an analogy for how erroneous the "well if you're choosing a baby according to X/ Y chromosome, then why not choose according to blue eyes and blonde hair?" They're completely different things, even if only from a scientific perspective - identifying XX or XY is a far simpler prospect than looking for gene markers that make a particular eye or hair colour.

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  19. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by BettyW View Post
    I'm very clearly NOT saying gay people are depraved! My point is that opponents of gay marriage trot out ridiculous lines like that "where will it end, if we can marry someone of the same sex then why not marry an animal or a car?" and similar nonsense. I used that as an analogy for how erroneous the "well if you're choosing a baby according to X/ Y chromosome, then why not choose according to blue eyes and blonde hair?" They're completely different things, even if only from a scientific perspective - identifying XX or XY is a far simpler prospect than looking for gene markers that make a particular eye or hair colour.
    I never said you did. My point is the two are not comparable. Genetic manipulation is possible. It is a door that could be opened. There is a rational, scientific ground for concern. There isn't with marriage equality. The only concern there is bigotry.

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