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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I think the mistake people make is thinking people move to private schools because of swimming pools and concert halls. No they don't. In the main it's because (a) the parents were privately educated and want that for their kids (b) they perceive that the education is better or (c) they have had a disappointing experience at their previous school (often state).

    No one I know talks about the fluff around the edges as mattering. Yes it's convenient not to have to drive my kids to many extra curricular sports because they can do them at school but I still have to anyway and it's not a factor in why we go there, or anyone else I know.

    It adds to the amenity of the school. Most state schools in our area barely have room for the classrooms let alone other facilities.
    In my experience, the number one reason for parents to send their children to top private schools was networking. Parents knew which families attended or were going to attend which private school, and decisions were made accordingly. Must be noted, I'm talking about the very wealthy and families with high social status and influence. For private schools in regional towns or outer suburbs I think their reasons are different. Not that reasoning makes any difference to funding issues.

    In terms of funding, if the stat's are true, I do not agree with 50%. I think that's absolutely obscene considering some schools don't even have the basics, like blinds and working heaters. In my highschool the gas heaters were so old and broken, one blew up in my peers face and burnt all his facial hair off. My point is, until all public schools have attained basic resources and infrastructure, funding to private schools should be cut.

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  3. #22
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    Closing the Gaps

    Wednesday November 3, 2010
    This is a summary of a new research paper called Closing the Gaps published by Save Our Schools.
    Private schools are better resourced than government schools
    Total expenditure per student in government schools in Australia is much lower than in Independent schools and similar to that in Catholic schools. Average total expenditure in Independent schools in 2007-08 was $15,147 per student compared to $10,723 per student in government schools and $10,399 per student in Catholic schools. The average total expenditure for all private schools was $12,303.

    Many elite private schools in Australia have total annual resources of between $24,000 and $30,000 per senior secondary student, which is double or more that available to government secondary schools.
    The gap in total expenditure between government and Independent schools has more than doubled since 1998-99 while the gap between government and Catholic school expenditure decreased by more than half. The expenditure advantage of Independent schools over government schools increased from $1,971 (in current $’s) in 1998-99 to $4,424 per student in 2007-08. The expenditure advantage of government schools over Catholic schools decreased from $852 to $324 per student.
    The above figures remove some major incompatibilities in the way government and private school expenditure are measured, but they are still likely to significantly under-estimate private school expenditure in comparison with government schools for several reasons.
    Expenditure on school transport by governments is included in government school expenditure but not in private school expenditure. In 2007-08, school transport expenditure in NSW and Queensland was $402 and $220 per student respectively.
    Private school expenditure does not include government expenditure on administration of funding and regulation of private schools and expenditure on shared government services for private schools, whereas these items are included in government school expenditure.
    The expenditure figures do not include the cost to government of tax deductible donations, which are much more significant for private schools than government schools. Government school expenditure does not include the use made of parent financial contributions, but these are very small. For example, they amounted to $72 per student in NSW and $31 per student in Queensland in 2009.
    Increases in total expenditure (adjusted for inflation) by private schools outstripped those in government schools between 1998-99 and 2007-08. Government school expenditure increased by $1,147 per student compared to increases of $1,739 and $2,207 per student in Catholic and Independent schools respectively. The increase in Independent schools was nearly double that in government schools while the increase in Catholic schools was 52% more.
    Total expenditure per student (adjusted for inflation) in government schools increased by 1.9% a year compared to 3.1% a year for Catholic schools between 1998-99 and 2007-08 and 2.6% a year in Independent schools.
    Education disadvantage is greater in government schools
    Government schools have to do more with their resources than Catholic and Independent schools because the extent of education disadvantage is much greater in government schools than in private schools.

    Government schools are the main provider for educationally disadvantaged groups. The vast majority of low income (77%), Indigenous (86%), disability (80%), provincial (72%) and remote/very remote area (83%) students attend government schools.
    Educationally disadvantaged students comprise a much larger proportion of government school enrolments than in private schools. Students from low income families comprised 40% of government school enrolments in 2006 compared to 25% in Catholic schools and 22% in Independent schools. In contrast, only 27% of government school enrolments were from high income families compared to 43% of Catholic school enrolments and 53% of Independent school enrolments.
    Indigenous students accounted for 5.7% of government school enrolments in 2008 compared to 1.9% in Catholic schools and 1.6% of Independent school enrolments. Students with disabilities comprised 5.5% of all government school enrolments compared to 3.3% of Catholic school enrolments and 1.9% of Independent school enrolments;
    Students in provincial areas comprised 28% of government school enrolments in 2008 compared to 21% of private school enrolments. Students from remote/very remote areas comprised 2.9% of government school enrolments compared to 1.5% of Catholic school enrolments and 0.7% of Independent enrolments.
    Overall, the extent of education disadvantage in government schools in Australia is much greater than in private schools. Low income, Indigenous and disability students comprise over 50% of government school enrolments compared to 30% in Catholic and 26% in Independent schools. The extent of education disadvantage in government schools is 1.7 times that in Catholic schools, and almost double that in Independent schools.
    There are large achievement gaps between low socio-economic status (SES) and high SES students; between Indigenous and non-Indigenous students; and between provincial and remote area students and metropolitan students.
    In 2006, 22-23% of low SES students did not achieve international proficiency standards in reading, mathematics and science compared to only 5% of high SES students. On average, low SES 15 year-old students are 2-2½ years behind high SES students. Low SES students enrolled in low SES schools are nearly four years behind students from high income families in high SES schools.
    About 40% of 15 year-old Indigenous students did not achieve international proficiency standards in reading, mathematics and science in 2006 compared to 12% of all Australian students. On average, 15 year-old Indigenous students are 2-2½ years behind non-Indigenous students.
    In 2006, 24-28% of 15 year-old students in remote and very remote areas did not achieve expected international proficiency levels in reading, mathematics and science compared to 12% of metropolitan students. On average, remote and very remote area students are about 18 months in learning behind metropolitan students.
    Thirteen to twenty per cent of provincial area students did not achieve international proficiency standards in reading, mathematics and science, respectively, in 2006 compared to 12% of metropolitan students. Provincial area students are about six months or less behind metropolitan students.
    Apart from the large achievement gap between low and high SES students there are also large gaps between Indigenous and provincial and remote area students and high SES students. On average, 15 year-old Indigenous students are about 3½ years behind high SES students; remote and very remote area students are about 2½ years behind high SES students; and provincial area students are about 18 months behind high SES students.
    These large achievement gaps are a grave social injustice and a waste of talents and resources. They curb productivity growth and lead to higher expenditure on health, welfare and crime. Closing the gaps is the major challenge and priority for Australian governments. Low SES, Indigenous, and provincial and remote area students should achieve similar outcomes to students from high SES families.
    Government funding increases have favoured privilege over disadvantage
    Australian government funding policies have favoured privilege over disadvantage for the last decade. Despite the higher level of education disadvantage in government schools, the largest percentage increases in government funding (federal, state and territory) have gone to private schools. Schools serving the wealthiest families in Australia continue to receive large and increasing amounts of government funding.

    The most privileged school sector – Independent schools – received the largest increase in government funding over the last decade. Between 1998-99 and 2007-08, government funding per student in Independent schools increased by 112%, 84% for Catholic schools and 67% for government schools. The average increase for all private schools was 89%. The percentage increase for Independent schools was over 1½ times the increase for government schools.
    Many high fee private schools have total expenditure per student which is two to three times that in government schools, yet they receive $2,000-$4,000 per student in Federal Government funding. For example, the most expensive private school in Australia, Geelong Grammar with Year 12 fees of nearly $28,000, will get $3,456 per student in federal funding in 2010. King’s School, one of the most expensive schools in Sydney with Year 12 fees of nearly $25,000, will get $3,211 per student.
    In contrast, the additional federal funding to be provided to disadvantaged schools under the Smarter Schools National Partnership program is less than $500 per student. Thus, Federal Government funding for high fee private schools is 4 to 8 times greater than the additional funding provided to disadvantaged schools.
    Moreover, Federal Government funding per student in many elite schools increased by 100-200% and more since 2001 compared to increased funding (federal, state and territory) for government schools of 67% since 1998-99. For example, it increased by increased by 236% for Kings School and 268% for Geelong Grammar.
    Thus, huge increases in government funding have gone to the wealthiest and least needy schools in Australia, while those most in need – government schools – continue to be denied the funding they require to provide an adequate education for all their students.
    Supporting privilege is seen by governments as more important than eliminating disadvantage and inequity in education. It is a policy which extends the advantages obtained from a wealthy background rather than reducing them. It effectively places more value on enriching the lives of those from privileged backgrounds than those who are not as well favoured in society.
    This is indefensible in a society that calls itself a democracy. A fundamental change in the funding priorities of Australian governments is required to close the achievement gaps in education. A massive funding increase for government schools is needed to transform our high quality, low equity education system into a high quality, high equity system.
    Government schools need a massive funding boost
    Overseas research studies show that the additional expenditure required for low income students to achieve at adequate levels is 100-150% more than the cost of educating an average student.

    If average government school expenditure is used as this benchmark, some 22-33 times the level of funding for low SES government schools provided through the Smarter Schools National Partnership program is needed to close the achievement gap between low SES students and the average for all students in Australia. This amounts to at least an additional $6.3 – $9.2 billion a year. Double this amount ($13.6 – 18.4 billion) is needed to close the achievement gap between low and high SES students.
    An alternative measure of the funding needed to address disadvantage in learning in Australia is to apply the ratio of targeted equity enrolments in the government and private sectors to the average level of resources in private schools. As government schools have 1.8 times the learning need of all private schools, they should receive 1.8 times the level of average private school expenditure. On this basis, additional funding for government schools of $26 billion per year is required to resource government schools to the level of private schools taking into account the greater extent of education disadvantage in the government sector.
    Whatever, benchmark is used, it is clear that a massive funding increase for government schools is needed to close achievement gaps in Australia and turn our high quality, low equity school system into a high quality, high equity system.

    http://www.saveourschools.com.au/fun...osing-the-gaps

  4. #23
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    Pymble Ladies' College total net recurrent income was $54,907,345 in 2014.

    Killara High School down the road is the local public school down the road. Their net recurrent income for 2014 was $18,572,759.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I think the demographic on the forum has really changed over the years to one of more upper middle class/high income families so I know my opinions won't be popular.

    Yes it's true those that use the private system, be it education or health, do take the pressure off the govt purses. I actually don't have an issue with some funding but seriously... SKEGS don't need millions in funding. They just don't given what they charge the parents. All it's doing is increasing the gap between rich and poor, ironically which research from Goneski says has life long benefits or disadvantages depending on whether you attend Sydney Girls Grammar or Blacktown High. I did an assignment on this a while back about this very topic and the rate of funding to these prestigious schools has increased exponentially.

    Ok help fund the catholic school that charges 3k a year in fees. Obviously that wouldn't cover costs to educate each child so top them up. If it say costs 10k a child and the school charges 3k give them 7. The govt are still saving 3. But if SKEGS are charging 40k, they are 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS per child over the basic costs. They should not be given a subsidy. People are going to argue that's not fair, but IMO it is. What isn't fair is households spending a whole base income on one child's education per year, still getting lots of funding while public school can't even afford the most basic items.

    And ironically these same families will complain about the latter families in 20 years on CL, not paying much/any tax, low/non skilled and how they are 'leaners' with Tall Poppy Syndrome. Maybe if some of those funds to these exclusive schools had been redirected to these low SES schools they would be doing better! and statistically that's proven.
    I agree with this. Maybe something like for every $2 in fees the private schools charge parents their government funding is cut by $1 until it reaches zero. I do not believe it should be $1 for $1 as it reduces incentive for schools to collect money from parents.

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    Why shouldn't private schools get funding like Government schools? Parents are CHOOSING to pay private school prices which is what is also making them able to build these things... I'm sure if every parent of public schools poured the same amount of money into them they could do similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesme View Post
    Why shouldn't private schools get funding like Government schools? Parents are CHOOSING to pay private school prices which is what is also making them able to build these things... I'm sure if every parent of public schools poured the same amount of money into them they could do similar.
    Do you think education should be equal for all? Do you think that every child, no matter how poor should have the same opportunities as wealthy children?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesme View Post
    Why shouldn't private schools get funding like Government schools? Parents are CHOOSING to pay private school prices which is what is also making them able to build these things... I'm sure if every parent of public schools poured the same amount of money into them they could do similar.
    Some families can't afford it? And I'm not talking about the stereotypical junkie family who have never worked a day in their lives. That always becomes the convenient example. What about the working poor? Even just middle class families?

    I find it sad but unsurprising that people here support the divide. There is something seriously wrong when a child's family income that they have no control over, controls what level of education they receive.

    I genuinely don't mean to be condesending but do you understand Renesme that kids from really poor schools statistically do much poorer in year 10/HSC, have a lot lower chance of getting into uni? have much higher unemployment? But then the next politics thread people will be whinging about how their or their husband's taxes pay for 'people to sit on the dole'. The irony is so glaring but so often lost. You ( a general you) support the widening gap between rich and poor bc you happen to sit on the privileged side..... then complain when the same households that are getting left behind end up on benefits with no prospects.

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renesme View Post
    I'm sure if every parent of public schools poured the same amount of money into them they could do similar.
    In what world would this be possible?

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    And I just wanted to add, that while public schools are dealing with hugely smaller budgets, they still do an amazing job and have passionate, amazing teachers who believe in equality in education. When I did my first placement my Associate teacher told me how much money she spends per year out of her own pocket and I almost physically fell over. She told me she didn't care bc she believed that public school kids had the same right to more differentiated art supplies, books and learning experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    Some families can't afford it? And I'm not talking about the stereotypical junkie family who have never worked a day in their lives. That always becomes the convenient example. What about the working poor? Even just middle class families?

    I find it sad but unsurprising that people here support the divide. There is something seriously wrong when a child's family income that they have no control over, controls what level of education they receive.

    I genuinely don't mean to be condesending but do you understand Renesme that kids from really poor schools statistically do much poorer in year 10/HSC, have a lot lower chance of getting into uni? have much higher unemployment? But then the next politics thread people will be whinging about how their or their husband's taxes pay for 'people to sit on the dole'. The irony is so glaring but so often lost. You ( a general you) support the widening gap between rich and poor bc you happen to sit on the privileged side..... then complain when the same households that are getting left behind end up on benefits with no prospects.
    This. Disadvantage transcends generations and it starts with education.

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