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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
    Good article and yes I do agree that on a whole women earn less than men. I don't *necessarily* agree that as a whole women with the same experience doing the same job get paid less. This article talks in averages, not specifics.

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    Default International Women's Day and feminism

    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
    - if a woman is more likely to be paid less than her partner (which she is by a long way, taking into account that women are paid less than their male counterparts, AND the fact that women work more in industries with lower pay) then it puts the couple in a position where it just makes more financial sense for the woman to take time off to care for kids. That's the position my family is in. It doesn't make financial sense for my partner (who works in a male dominated industry) to take time off, but it does for me to. This isnt our choice. We would prefer that we both worked 4 days.
    .
    To what extent are situations like this due to direct discrimination as opposed to individuals choices? There are things that women can do to increase their earning capacity - they don't have to earn less than their male spouse. Eg:
    - study at school
    - do further training (university or a trade)
    - enter an industry that pays more
    - establish themselves in a career before having kids (yes this may involve waiting until mid 20's or later)
    - after an initial period following the birth of a child let hubby take time off for daddy daycare (yes I know not all males can do this - however I know a lot that can and their wives still take primary care responsibility at home during bubs first year or two).

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  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I don't disagree with you. Any chance you went into this post with a set preconceived notion and that has tainted how you viewed things?
    I started the thread because I was interested in people's thoughts on feminism. As it was IWD and social media was rampant with anti feminist opinions, I wanted to learn why some people have that view.

    Given you outlined in your reply that you do identify as a feminist and followed with a wiki definition of feminism, I'd assume you would have known that your last paragraph is not what feminism is about and, considering it didn't correlate with what you previously said, I'd hazard a guess that it was a deliberate attempt to spark controversy.

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    Default International Women's Day and feminism

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    To what extent are situations like this due to direct discrimination as opposed to individuals choices? There are things that women can do to increase their earning capacity - they don't have to earn less than their male spouse. Eg:
    - study at school
    - do further training (university or a trade)
    - enter an industry that pays more
    - establish themselves in a career before having kids (yes this may involve waiting until mid 20's or later)
    - after an initial period following the birth of a child let hubby take time off for daddy daycare (yes I know not all males can do this - however I know a lot that can and their wives still take primary care responsibility at home during bubs first year or two).
    My husband earns a shiz load more than me. Even if I was working full time, I would still only earn 40% of what he currently earns. And even though we are in completely different jobs, my husband has no formal qualifications and left high school at year 10 (or equivalent) and I'm tertiary educated.
    Last edited by BigRedV; 09-03-2016 at 17:25.

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  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    To what extent are situations like this due to direct discrimination as opposed to individuals choices? There are things that women can do to increase their earning capacity - they don't have to earn less than their male spouse. Eg:
    - study at school
    - do further training (university or a trade)
    - enter an industry that pays more
    - establish themselves in a career before having kids (yes this may involve waiting until mid 20's or later)
    - after an initial period following the birth of a child let hubby take time off for daddy daycare (yes I know not all males can do this - however I know a lot that can and their wives still take primary care responsibility at home during bubs first year or two).
    But why do only women have to take on all these extra measures to ensure a good career later down the line? Because we have less choices than men. Because we have to do more to get to the same place as men.
    Anyway... Give the government and big industries your ideas about getting women better paid, because at the moment, despite and awareness and active involvement of the above entities, the pay gap is actually widening.

    Finally, there is much much grey area between direct discrimination and personal choice. The pay gap exists because of this grey area, because of the assumptions and beliefs that people hold of women as caretakers and men as bread winners.
    The pay gap will get shorter as these patriarchal ideas about gender change. When men are also expected to take time off to take care of their children, too. When traditionally female professions are paid as well as traditionally male professions where there is similar qualifications needed and similar workloads. When male clients don't make it clear that they only want to work with a man. When women being assertive is the workplace is seen as assertiveness, not b*tchiness.

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  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I get what you mean but that's why I divide 'choice' into loaded choice and autonomous choice. Yes you can choose to not have kids, but just speaking for me personally, my life would be a hollow empty shell without my babies. Obviously I'm not putting down those that choose not to procreate, or those that simply can't get pg but yeah.... I consider that a loaded choice.

    As to swapping, if they are on similar pays then what would be the point? they would be the same financially. If she desperately wanted to work for non financial reasons then yes, that would be a great option.
    Not to mention if men have children it may benefit their career. Whereas for women it is the opposite. Why are men free to choose to have children and a career and women not? :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    To what extent are situations like this due to direct discrimination as opposed to individuals choices? There are things that women can do to increase their earning capacity - they don't have to earn less than their male spouse. Eg:
    - study at school
    - do further training (university or a trade)
    - enter an industry that pays more
    - establish themselves in a career before having kids (yes this may involve waiting until mid 20's or later)
    - after an initial period following the birth of a child let hubby take time off for daddy daycare (yes I know not all males can do this - however I know a lot that can and their wives still take primary care responsibility at home during bubs first year or two).
    In the job I had when I fell pregnant, the only permanent staff were males. While there were just as many of us females that had set hours or worked as many hours, we were never offered (or granted when asked) permanent positions.

    When I could no longer hide my pregnancy, my hours were steadily cut over a few weeks, then my remaining shift was switched to one that was not at all suitable for pregnancy, practically forcing me to quit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedV View Post
    My husband earns a shiz load more than me. Even if I was working full time, I would still only earn 40% of what he currently earns. And even though we are in completely different jobs, my husband has no formal qualifications and left high school at year 10 (or equivalent) and I'm tertiary educated.
    What job is your husband in? Does it involve shift work/extended hours danger?

    You're a teacher from memory. Unfortunately teachers are paid a pittance. Not saying it's a good thing but it's generally something people know prior to entering training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atomicmama View Post
    In the job I had when I fell pregnant, the only permanent staff were males. While there were just as many of us females that had set hours or worked as many hours, we were never offered (or granted when asked) permanent positions.

    When I could no longer hide my pregnancy, my hours were steadily cut over a few weeks, then my remaining shift was switched to one that was not at all suitable for pregnancy, practically forcing me to quit.
    That sucks. Can I ask what industry you were in and whether you worked for a small or large company?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    To what extent are situations like this due to direct discrimination as opposed to individuals choices? There are things that women can do to increase their earning capacity - they don't have to earn less than their male spouse. Eg:
    - study at school
    - do further training (university or a trade)
    - enter an industry that pays more
    - establish themselves in a career before having kids (yes this may involve waiting until mid 20's or later)
    - after an initial period following the birth of a child let hubby take time off for daddy daycare (yes I know not all males can do this - however I know a lot that can and their wives still take primary care responsibility at home during bubs first year or two).
    Don't more women than men attend universities? And there is a 50:50 ratio of male and female PhD candidates.

    I spoke to a lady last year who campaigns for women's equality in science. She did a PhD in the 90s and there was a 50:50 ratio back then too. Now she is the only woman at her level (quite high) in her company - approximately 10% are women at this level across the board. Where did all the women she did her PhD with go?? There's a massive skill loss in science...all these woman who are highly trained are lost.

    She also had a significant pay dispute in the early 2000s. Again, the only woman at her level and she was the lowest paid. They were all at the same level with similar experience and qualifications. Apparently this happened to her at two different companies.

    Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
    Last edited by AdornedWithCats; 09-03-2016 at 18:12.

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