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  1. #11
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    Default International Women's Day and feminism

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post

    Does this mean I think people should be paid the same regardless of their individual skills and experience? No. Attachment 79075
    This is not what feminists are suggesting. The pay disparity is a complex issue. Men get paid more because they get more opportunities, more mentoring, feel more entitled and can concentrate on higher pay above other things like flexibility. Eg, a man may move companies multiple times for a higher pay packet while a woman may stay put for much longer on a much lower salary to get access to maternity leave and more flexible workplace arrangements.
    Male graduates earn more than female graduates straight off the bat- surely all the male graduates aren't actually better contenders? There is more at play than just merit. Male graduates earning more means that every incremental pay rise is keeping them ahead of women. It is extremely simplistic to suggest skills and experience are the only difference.

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  3. #12
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    Oh and to answer the OP, yes I am a feminist. Of the strident variety!

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Does this mean I think people should be paid the same regardless of their individual skills and experience? No. Attachment 79075
    We're discussing feminism, not communism.

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    I do. But it's a very recent thing. I didn't realise I did until I found out how much inequity there still is in academia.

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    no, I wouldn't say I identified as feminist. I believe women should have equal rights and opportunities definitely. And I am fortunate enough to say that I have not experienced inequity in the workplace for being a female. The reason I don't consider myself a feminist is because sometimes I find there are double standards. There are some women who expect men to pay for dates, to buy women expensive gifts, to be the financial provider etc etc and then go on to say women should be treated equal and get equal pay but yet want the men to pay for stuff!
    At work i also have a female colleague who constantly makes digs about males in the workplace who can't do 2 things at once unlike women, comments about how men are hopeless etc yet if a man were to say this about a women they would be marched straight to hr! So it's not feminism itself that annoys me but some of the double standards.
    There are also plenty of women i know who choose to not climb the corporate ladder and prefer their husband to be the main breadwinner so in some cases it's not inequity in the workplace, it is a choice some women make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    Yes I am. Because equality matters and we're not there yet.
    Yes. This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontu View Post
    no, I wouldn't say I identified as feminist. I believe women should have equal rights and opportunities definitely. And I am fortunate enough to say that I have not experienced inequity in the workplace for being a female. The reason I don't consider myself a feminist is because sometimes I find there are double standards. There are some women who expect men to pay for dates, to buy women expensive gifts, to be the financial provider etc etc and then go on to say women should be treated equal and get equal pay but yet want the men to pay for stuff!
    At work i also have a female colleague who constantly makes digs about males in the workplace who can't do 2 things at once unlike women, comments about how men are hopeless etc yet if a man were to say this about a women they would be marched straight to hr! So it's not feminism itself that annoys me but some of the double standards.
    There are also plenty of women i know who choose to not climb the corporate ladder and prefer their husband to be the main breadwinner so in some cases it's not inequity in the workplace, it is a choice some women make.
    Those are all good points but not one of them is relevant to whether or not you identify as a feminist.

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    @Jontu your last paragraph fits with feminist ideas. It's not about a man and woman in a couple having equal roles, it's about, for example, two employees of same qualifications, experience etc being paid equal amounts. And also bringing unconcious biases to light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontu View Post
    no, I wouldn't say I identified as feminist. I believe women should have equal rights and opportunities definitely. And I am fortunate enough to say that I have not experienced inequity in the workplace for being a female. The reason I don't consider myself a feminist is because sometimes I find there are double standards. There are some women who expect men to pay for dates, to buy women expensive gifts, to be the financial provider etc etc and then go on to say women should be treated equal and get equal pay but yet want the men to pay for stuff!
    At work i also have a female colleague who constantly makes digs about males in the workplace who can't do 2 things at once unlike women, comments about how men are hopeless etc yet if a man were to say this about a women they would be marched straight to hr! So it's not feminism itself that annoys me but some of the double standards.
    There are also plenty of women i know who choose to not climb the corporate ladder and prefer their husband to be the main breadwinner so in some cases it's not inequity in the workplace, it is a choice some women make.
    I don't really understand your arguments about not identifying as feminist. Some people are just lazy and want someone else to pay the bills- yes some women but also some men.
    The digs about men not being able to do things/multitask make me cringe too, and probably make many other feminists cringe. Gender stereotypes aren't helpful to feminism.
    Your last paragraph is interesting- yes some women make that choice, but it is a far easier choice for a woman to make than a man, and it's a far easier choice for a woman to make than to be the primary breadwinner.
    What you perhaps aren't considering is how all of these things fit into the larger system of patriarchy. You are talking about individuals where I am more interested in the system that assigns particular gender roles such as- men are dominant, more able to control their emotions, more interested in work, less able to multitask and take on caring roles etc- and vice versa for women. Dismantling the patriarchy means that EVERYONE- Men and women- will be able to have REAL choice and will be able to be their true selves to a far higher degree than they can today. So women who choose to stay at home can, and so can men. And women who choose to climb the corporate ladder can, and so can men.

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    Default International Women's Day and feminism

    I wrote a post in a thread a year or so ago about not understanding feminism, but my impression of what it actually was, was very skewed and I learnt a lot about what it was truly about in a spin off thread.

    I've come a long way in my understanding and views, but I still have some issues with (well I think I do) with some of the statistics on I equality. In pay for example, I would say a large proportion of that inequality is for those reasons @fearless leader mentioned such as women taking time out of the workforce to look after their children, which in turn puts them behind the 8 ball, also as a part time employee (such as myself) my career advancement has stalled (same with SAHMs who were once working). I think that represents far more of the issue than say an organisation purposely paying a woman less purely for the fact she's female. Whilst I understand this does still go on, I don't believe it's as much.

    But again on the flip side it's the underlying attitudes of how women should behave in the work place is contributory in that women are often not as assertive when going for promotions or pay rises as men. Which also contributes to the divide.

    I'm also in two minds about there being 'women's groups' as I think it encourages the divide between men and women, I'm all for supporting women in areas they specifically / individually need support to be given more opportunities that are currently allowed to them, but I don't see why those offering that same support to men who also need it.

    Then I see the way women are seen and spoken about and to, can contribute to domestic violence so I see that there's a great need to be changing these attitudes for the safety of our women.

    My comments above relate mainly to the western world, I know there are A LOT of cultures where there is far more work to be done, think the documentary "they named me malala"

    So I guess what I'm saying is yes I am in the true sense a feminist, I just am not as passionate as others in some aspects of it as I too and fro between many aspects of feminism.

    End of ramble!
    Last edited by A-Squared; 09-03-2016 at 06:26.

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