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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Yes I can see that. I also think that women make those choices because they just want to. Or don't plan in advance. Or don't want to chase he money. Or just want to be with their young kids at home.
    I don't disagree with aspects of this. And feminism to me is about choice, and living in a society where women can make such choices (which is still not the case in many countries).

    I guess where I struggle is that this attitude is kind of accepting the status quo and not exploring the aspects of a patriarchal society that have led us to this point and making a case for change.

    Maybe you're right that a mere two years out of the job can put you behind (not the case in my industry). Why can't we live in a society that acknowledges this and invests in retraining/upskilling the women that have been competent (or better than) for all those years prior to daring to go on leave, rather than writing them off?

    Why do we shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way it is. Those are the choices we make'?

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
    It is NOT a difference in nature- as I said earlier, advances in neuroscience are showing that male and female brains are far more similar than different, and the differences are more often through nurture, not nature. Women are not biologically wired to be more caring. We are SOCIALLY wired to be more caring. SOME women will be more natural carers, but so will some men. But socially we notice the women carers and nurture them, and hold them up as great examples for all women. What happens to naturally more caring men? They're bullied or treated with suspicion
    I find the part about neuroscience interesting. I haven't read the studies so not qualified to comment. But there is no denying that there are biological differences in women and men - we look different, we sound different, women can get pregnant and have babies, men can't. I can't see how neurologically we can be so similar yet biologically in other aspects we can be so different. What about hormones? Testosterone makes men/people more aggressive and wouldn't aggression affect behavior ? Please note I stress I am not condoning violence or anything like that. I am thinking out loud about how certain traits make men and women different and yet there is this study that says neurologically we are not so different so finding it a bit contradictory.
    I also find it interesting that in some species in the animal world there are very obvious gender roles and no one questions or disputes it. It is studied, observed and accepted as fact. Yet with humans, we say we are the same, it's social conditioning that makes us how we are perceived.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I'd like to chime in here as someone who's worked beside engineers for most of my life. It's one of the hardest uni courses you can do. Next to architecture I have the utmost respect for people who get through it. It's extraordinarily difficult.

    I would have loved to have been an engineer but just wasn't smart enough.
    But on the other hand, teaching requires serious life long learning. It seems like the dominant pedagogy changes every week. Not to mention the hugely stressful workload of teachers. Teachers have a massive burn out rate that doesn't seem to exist nearly as much in engineering.
    Funnily enough, I have a friend who has switched from engineering to teaching 3 years ago. She says teaching is far harder but also far more rewarding. It's probably to do with learning styles too- the engineers I know are astoundingly good at maths. I wouldn't last past writing my name on a test in an engineering exam, but I would wipe the floor with all of them at writing a coherent argument. They're just different skill sets IMO.

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    I'm just gonna say most teachers couldn't be engineers and most engineers couldn't be teachers. There are multiple intelligences, very different from each other. Society values some more than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
    But on the other hand, teaching requires serious life long learning. It seems like the dominant pedagogy changes every week. Not to mention the hugely stressful workload of teachers. Teachers have a massive burn out rate that doesn't seem to exist nearly as much in engineering.
    Funnily enough, I have a friend who has switched from engineering to teaching 3 years ago. She says teaching is far harder but also far more rewarding. It's probably to do with learning styles too- the engineers I know are astoundingly good at maths. I wouldn't last past writing my name on a test in an engineering exam, but I would wipe the floor with all of them at writing a coherent argument. They're just different skill sets IMO.
    I'm not disagreeing. I have a lot of family members who are teachers and work I construction. I don't agree that engineers aren't on a constant learning curve (every accident or failure results in new learnings).

    Anywho off topic. Just an area I've got a lot of respect for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I'd like to chime in here as someone who's worked beside engineers for most of my life. It's one of the hardest uni courses you can do. Next to architecture I have the utmost respect for people who get through it. It's extraordinarily difficult.

    I would have loved to have been an engineer but just wasn't smart enough.
    I'm not for a moment saying engineering is easy as a degree or as a career. I'm just responding to the idea that engineers get paid more bc they study for longer. I thought it was a 4 year course, the same as teaching so the course isn't longer.

    I'm currently half way through my primary ed and quite frankly unsure if I want to continue. The stress and hours are insane, far far more than I thought. I'm not saying teaching is better/harder than engineering. Just that it's a longish very demanding course and the average person has no idea the time teachers put in - yet the pay considering all that is sh*t. Many of us are arguing that is bc it is female dominated.

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    I don't think pay is lower just because it is female dominated. What about the police force? Male dominated and a very tough job in my opinion. But the pay is terrible too.

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  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jontu View Post
    I find the part about neuroscience interesting. I haven't read the studies so not qualified to comment. But there is no denying that there are biological differences in women and men - we look different, we sound different, women can get pregnant and have babies, men can't. I can't see how neurologically we can be so similar yet biologically in other aspects we can be so different. What about hormones? Testosterone makes men/people more aggressive and wouldn't aggression affect behavior ? Please note I stress I am not condoning violence or anything like that. I am thinking out loud about how certain traits make men and women different and yet there is this study that says neurologically we are not so different so finding it a bit contradictory.
    I also find it interesting that in some species in the animal world there are very obvious gender roles and no one questions or disputes it. It is studied, observed and accepted as fact. Yet with humans, we say we are the same, it's social conditioning that makes us how we are perceived.
    Delusions of gender is a really good book that covers a lot of this. I certainly agree that there are definite biological differences between men and women, there is very interesting anecdotal evidence about people who undergo sex changes who report that the way they feel and react changes dramatically after undergoing hormonal therapy.
    But gender is on a spectrum- if you looked at some of my traits and grouped them together you would probably conclude that I am very typically female. But if you grouped another bunch of my traits I would seem very typically masculine.
    Yes, other animals have typical gender roles but they are social gender roles too I would say. Humans aren't the only creatures who create societies, many animals do. And I can imagine that even in the animal kingdom there are some who are 'more' masculine or feminine than others (eg alpha males) Animals bred in captivity away from their own kind must be taught gender roles before being introduced to others of their species.

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    Default International Women's Day and feminism

    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    I don't disagree with aspects of this. And feminism to me is about choice, and living in a society where women can make such choices (which is still not the case in many countries).

    I guess where I struggle is that this attitude is kind of accepting the status quo and not exploring the aspects of a patriarchal society that have led us to this point and making a case for change.

    Maybe you're right that a mere two years out of the job can put you behind (not the case in my industry). Why can't we live in a society that acknowledges this and invests in retraining/upskilling the women that have been competent (or better than) for all those years prior to daring to go on leave, rather than writing them off?

    Why do we shrug our shoulders and say 'that's just the way it is. Those are the choices we make'?
    I agree that we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders and say that's just the way it is. I think more can and should be done in areas such as flexible working conditions for new fathers as well as social conditioning of women towards working in certain areas. I've been known to get a bit passionate in threads relating to gender and young kids. Having same sex parties for 4 year olds, encouraging your toddler females to wear bikinis even though they have no boobs (that thread was a corker!) only encouraging your daughters to following Frozen (and not cars or monsters), having crappy men's magazines with women in bikinis in suggestive poses at kids heights in the supermarket, staying with men who treat you like crap. They all add up and contribute to the gender issues females experience as adults.
    Last edited by VicPark; 09-03-2016 at 20:14.

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  17. #110
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    I think part of the reason it's lower paid is the perception of the holidays teachers get. How does that actually work? Do you still get paid for the X number of weeks you get each year?

    I know there's still prep and pupil free days but it's still more than average isn't it?


 

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