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  1. #31
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    Absolutely. If there is no chance someone is going to recover and they are in absolute agony, it should be their choice.

  2. #32
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    I agree with the points you're making VP and that's where a lot of the grey areas exist.

    That article that was shared was lovely, but notice how there was no burden placed on the daughters nor any expectation of them to have a part. If someone chooses euthanasia they should be required to do it themselves, not rely on someone else.

    If you say, but my dear old granny was suffering, her last days were awful etc, is she in her right mind to consent to euthanasia? Or is the option of euthanasia there for the relatives so THEY don't have to suffer through their loved one dying.

    I have been witness to many a death in my nursing career (oncology/palliative care), as well as being present for the last few days of my pops life. Majority of those deaths have actually been quite peaceful. The patients have been allowed to die with respect and comfort. It is actually more upsetting for the families who can't handle the sounds and smells - the sound of laboured breathing with fluid and secretions building up, the smells of someone who has soiled themselves. Yes, it may seem that the dying person has no dignity by having an episode of incontinence, but usually this is dealt with quickly and professionally with respect given to the patient regardless of their level of consciousness. Yes there have been a couple of unpleasant ones, but sometimes people just hang on for a variety of reasons. I, as a professional, would not feel comfortable administering any medication knowing that the sole purpose of such is to end someone's life.

    What about people with serious mental illness? It may severely affect their day to day life to the point they can't function. Can they be allowed to euthanize themselves or will they be deemed not of sound mind? Would it even be recognized as euthanasia? Or would it still be called suicide, which effectively is what we're talking about - just with a more pleasant name.

    What if Mrs. Jones next door who is otherwise fit and well decides to euthanize herself because she has no family left, she's all alone in the world and it fails leaving her with brain damage caused by hypoxia or any other kind of multiple organ failure. Do we then keep her alive because there's no next of kin to decide to turn off life support?

    As long as people appreciate that the black and white ends of the spectrum are miniscule compared to all the shades of grey in between. I'm not sure euthanasia will ever be legalized, and it is because of these grey areas that I doubt it will ever happen.

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  4. #33
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    Yes in theory.

    In practice there would need to be safeguards to prevent elder abuse situations - where family members kill someone off because they have become a nuisance or they want an early inheritance. Even requiring consent is not straightforward - how to you ensure that someone has not been bullied or coerced into giving that consent?

    And medical staff should be able to refuse to perform the procedure as some people may find it psychologically damaging to know they've ended someone's life.

    I do strongly think that euthanasia should be available to people and family members in principle, but part of the reason it is not currently legal is because its such a complex issue to have to legislate for and get it right.

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  6. #34
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    I believe that where you are able to seek euthanasia overseas, there are safeguards in place, such as psychological or psychiatric evaluation of the patient - by more than one independent party, and having at least 3 doctors agreeing that the patient is terminal, and they also outline other quality of life factors. I believe the case is heard by a panel, and that it has to be signed off before a doctor is permitted to perform it.

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  8. #35
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    Yes. The concept of bodily autonomy should apply to all stages of life. When a person reaches the point where they have only pain, suffering and misery ahead of them, I believe they should be provided with the assistance they need to make a comfortable and dignified exit if they so desire.

    It really boggles my mind to think about how many resources we in the developed world use to keep people alive for as long as medically possible, when they no longer derive any enjoyment from life. It almost seems like a form of well-intentioned torture, and I wonder whether it is sometimes more about trying to assuage or postpone the guilt or sadness of family members, rather than genuinely doing what is in the interests of the individual. It also makes me wonder how many more lives could be saved if those resources were instead directed to providing basic medical care in developing countries.

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by M'LadyEm View Post
    I agree with the points you're making VP and that's where a lot of the grey areas exist.

    That article that was shared was lovely, but notice how there was no burden placed on the daughters nor any expectation of them to have a part. If someone chooses euthanasia they should be required to do it themselves, not rely on someone else.

    If you say, but my dear old granny was suffering, her last days were awful etc, is she in her right mind to consent to euthanasia? Or is the option of euthanasia there for the relatives so THEY don't have to suffer through their loved one dying.

    I have been witness to many a death in my nursing career (oncology/palliative care), as well as being present for the last few days of my pops life. Majority of those deaths have actually been quite peaceful. The patients have been allowed to die with respect and comfort. It is actually more upsetting for the families who can't handle the sounds and smells - the sound of laboured breathing with fluid and secretions building up, the smells of someone who has soiled themselves. Yes, it may seem that the dying person has no dignity by having an episode of incontinence, but usually this is dealt with quickly and professionally with respect given to the patient regardless of their level of consciousness. Yes there have been a couple of unpleasant ones, but sometimes people just hang on for a variety of reasons. I, as a professional, would not feel comfortable administering any medication knowing that the sole purpose of such is to end someone's life.

    What about people with serious mental illness? It may severely affect their day to day life to the point they can't function. Can they be allowed to euthanize themselves or will they be deemed not of sound mind? Would it even be recognized as euthanasia? Or would it still be called suicide, which effectively is what we're talking about - just with a more pleasant name.

    What if Mrs. Jones next door who is otherwise fit and well decides to euthanize herself because she has no family left, she's all alone in the world and it fails leaving her with brain damage caused by hypoxia or any other kind of multiple organ failure. Do we then keep her alive because there's no next of kin to decide to turn off life support?

    As long as people appreciate that the black and white ends of the spectrum are miniscule compared to all the shades of grey in between. I'm not sure euthanasia will ever be legalized, and it is because of these grey areas that I doubt it will ever happen.
    Hats off to you LadyEm. I don't know how you do what you do.

    I'm curious about your views on this though. I'm a medical lawyer so I've seen a bit of a different side to this. I think patients can get wonderful palliative care as an inpatient. They have to be really close to death. I read a report on this that said the average length of admission for palliative care was 12.5 days. For a terminal illness that's a long time to wait for the type of care you're talking about. The fact is that many people are killing themselves anyway, in terrible ways, while waiting for palliative care.

    Do you think a panel would work? Like they do with late term abortions, but with extra requirements for reports, independent experts etc to assess the patient.

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  12. #37
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    Slippery slope...
    (Just as with the abortion debate).

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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by J37 View Post
    Well if there is, I have never seen one, or even heard one being mentioned or discussed. And I have worked in many hospitals, including ICU and Palliative Care in major tertiary hospitals.

    Have any of the nurses?

    I always thought it was an urban myth.

    Sent from my SM-N910G using The Bub Hub mobile app
    oh I'm not purporting to anything like this existing. it just seemed like a logical way to automate a process so the doctor doesn't have to be the one to push the button so to speak. someone in the immediate family could choose the moment to lovingly release the unwell individual from their pain. it doesn't seem like anything overly complicated but I guess it's not in existence d because euthanasia is not yet something that's done (or practiced widely/legally).

  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by turquoisecoast View Post
    oh I'm not purporting to anything like this existing. it just seemed like a logical way to automate a process so the doctor doesn't have to be the one to push the button so to speak. someone in the immediate family could choose the moment to lovingly release the unwell individual from their pain. it doesn't seem like anything overly complicated but I guess it's not in existence d because euthanasia is not yet something that's done (or practiced widely/legally).
    I thought they did exist though. Didn't Dr Nitschke invent something?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthan...hanasia_device

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Slippery slope...
    (Just as with the abortion debate).
    Do you think the slippery slope can't be managed through properly thought out procedures? That way any creep in the application would be next to impossible as the law would have to be changed.

    And do you think the current system for abortions has failed?


 

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