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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMF View Post
    Just quoting this because I couldn't thank it more than once.

    We are not training little robots. We have little individual human beings living with us, that all have different needs and wants, and those wants change sometimes on a daily basis. Why so rigid? Why can't we respect our childs wishes? Why is it that if a child wakes for a cuddle, we see it as A Problem that needs to be fixed?
    This 100%

    It fascinates me that there is an expectation that we all fit into certain parameters. This includes babies, toddlers, children and adults. To me it kind if defies what makes humans so extraordinary - our differences.

    I have been an insomniac since childhood. It wasn't easy for me or my parents but I am so grateful that my mum chose to deal with it lovingly. I was and am an anxious person and being left to deal with it by myself would not have ended well.

    To that end DH and I have chosen to treat sleep lovingly. In all its forms. DS has always been a solid sleeper. DD is another story. But it's ok. It's her and we will love her through it. To all the mums out there doubting yourselves about how you handle sleep with your child, just decide what matters to you. Once you're comfortable with how you truly feel about it and how you want to handle it, the rest becomes unimportant. That has been my experience.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdornedWithCats View Post
    What is a "bad sleeper" away?

    Some would say my ds is a bad sleeper...he *still* wakes several times a night at 18 months and needs me to get him back to sleep. And he needs me to get him to sleep at bedtime and nap time. But he sleeps 11-12 hours overnight with minimal awake time (usually) as we cosleep and he has a 1.5-3 hour nap a day. So whenever someone asks how he sleeps I say "good" because that's what it is to me. Dh wakes several times at night and I find it hard to settle and unwind at bedtime. It is not surprising that ds is the same!

    I purposely do things differently than what my parents did. I never coslept with my parents and I had poorer sleep for it imo. I couldn't cope when waking up at night without help from my parents until I was about 10. I was scared of the dark (despite nightlight and brother being in the room) so too scared to walk alone to the toilet or if I had a nightmare I would be too scared to go back to sleep. My parents made me feel bad for waking them so sometimes I would wet the bed, lie awake scared and I remember once I threw up but didn't want to get into "trouble" so didn't tell my mum and went to school as normal the next day. She wasn't happy I hadn't told her when I got home from school! I want something different for my kids.
    Yep exactly this. I think my kids will sleep better and be more relaxed and happy knowing that if they need mum at any time through the night I am there, and if they need to get up and go to the toilet they can without getting yelled at, if they're not feeling well they can tell me and I will lie with them, if they have a nightmare I will comfort them. I do believe that most kids who KNOW that someone is going to comfort them WHENEVER they need it, is likely to eventually sleep better than one who doesn't. Whether that be at 2 years, 4 years or 10 years is highly dependant on the individual child.

    Whilst it is important to me that my entire family get adequate amounts of sleep, and I do (once they are old enough to understand) implement bed times and encourage them to settle on their own and take themselves to the toilet etc, what is MOST important to me, is that all of my children always know that they can rely on their mum to be for them no matter what at any time of the day or night.

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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CazHazKidz View Post
    Yep exactly this. I think my kids will sleep better and be more relaxed and happy knowing that if they need mum at any time through the night I am there, and if they need to get up and go to the toilet they can without getting yelled at, if they're not feeling well they can tell me and I will lie with them, if they have a nightmare I will comfort them. I do believe that most kids who KNOW that someone is going to comfort them WHENEVER they need it, is likely to eventually sleep better than one who doesn't. Whether that be at 2 years, 4 years or 10 years is highly dependant on the individual child.

    Whilst it is important to me that my entire family get adequate amounts of sleep, and I do (once they are old enough to understand) implement bed times and encourage them to settle on their own and take themselves to the toilet etc, what is MOST important to me, is that all of my children always know that they can rely on their mum to be for them no matter what at any time of the day or night.
    Love this. I feel exactly the same way. It actually breaks my heart to think that children lie in bed awake, alone and frightened without comfort.

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Just read the follow on comments now

    I haven't mentioned any external sleep gurus and I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert. I will suggest that *if* a parent has reached their threshold and would like assistance then to include (not exclude) in that discussion parents like myself with kids that sleep through.

    I stand by my original comments - if an older kid without medical conditions is consistently waking at night (requiring adult intervention) then yes it is within the parents power to change this. Not easy but do-able.
    I will add that it doesn't mean a parent with older kids that wake at night isn't a great parent, not at all. Just that they either probably have too much on their plate to focus on the intricacies of one child's sleep habits or other areas of parenting (education, care, being fun) are probably areas they most excel at.
    I'm still reading through the thread so probably jumping the gun a bit but just wanted to reply to you before I got lost in others' comments.

    I completely agree that some kids need some things tweaked in order to sleep well, I'm not arguing that, I offered advice in the other thread. My issue is that I don't think you understand how sometimes your insistence on this topic, that it must be something you're doing or encouraging if your child is healthy, how that can make a parent feel. Especially an exhausted one. I'm not talking about in threads where a parent has actually asked for some tips on how to help their child sleep better, they asked--go for it with telling them what worked for you. I'm talking about in threads like this, where Sonja's intention was to try and help other exhausted parents feel better. Our children are constantly growing and changing, to deny that developmental changes do not play any part in how some children sleep...c'mon.

  8. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    @A-Squared I don't agree that "many experts" agree with TH. I don't think they do at all. I think many experts place value in a routine (not brain surgery) but as for her methods I actually think the opposite. Many experts don't like them but because of the industry built up around people like her are reluctant to be too negative.
    Yes! Once I started looking into her, there is at least one organisation that has actually issued a press release regarding some of her advice, and others that have answered questions which show her advice goes against certain safety standards. But of course many experts believe in the value of a routine for a child as knowing what comes next makes them feel secure.

  9. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    After a shocker night with DD - 4.5 weeks I started this morning to feel like I was doing something wrong. I had promised myself, after fruitless worrying and trying to control DS sleep that I would just go with it this time.

    Thanks @Sonja for this wonderfully timed post!!! Acceptance is far better for my state of mind when it comes to baby/toddler/children sleeping. Fighting it is what causes me terrible angst.
    This is the point I've been trying to make and I know you probably know pretty well my thoughts on all of this... So much of my anxiety of a new mom wasn't *only* because I was exhausted, it was because so many (real life, forums, articles, books) kept making me feel like it was something I was doing; that I wasn't trying hard enough or I was instilling a bad habit, etc. The amount of times I stressed myself out as I rocked or fed DS to sleep during those times that I really just needed him to sleep no matter what I did, stressed that I was causing a bad habit that he'd be doing until he was 12...If all of that noise would have let up, I would have just been dealing with the anxiety of an exhausted new mom and not the added anxiety that something I was or wasn't doing was the reason I was so tired.

    I think Sonja started this thread so a lot of parents could realise that they are not doing anything wrong.

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  11. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    Ok I have no idea what you mean by this but I'm not just talking about that comment. You just don't seem willing to ever acknowledge that night waking in children can be normal. No matter how many times people tell you that for their child it is.
    .
    Hey there appears to be a bit of confusion regarding my views - apologies if I haven't been the clearest, let me try and clarify now. By the 9.5/10 as opposed to 10/10 I am trying to say that with older kids without medical issues I don't expect that 100% of those kids are able to sleep through.

    Just want to add that for me it's not a question or normal v not normal (I don't like those terms even though I have used them myself). It's not even a question of night wakings being common amongst older kids - I agree they are. For me it's a question of preventability and avoidability (not sure if that's a 'proper' word or not). I believe most older kids without medical issues are capable of a sleeping through if they are provided with certain environmental parameters (appropriate bedding, temperature, timing and length of day naps, bedtime routine, morning routine, aiding to sleep etc).

    Hope that clarifies things.

  12. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracie's Mum View Post
    Love this. I feel exactly the same way. It actually breaks my heart to think that children lie in bed awake, alone and frightened without comfort.
    I don't know any kids that do that - poor kids.

  13. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    This is the point I've been trying to make and I know you probably know pretty well my thoughts on all of this... So much of my anxiety of a new mom wasn't *only* because I was exhausted, it was because so many (real life, forums, articles, books) kept making me feel like it was something I was doing; that I wasn't trying hard enough or I was instilling a bad habit, etc. The amount of times I stressed myself out as I rocked or fed DS to sleep during those times that I really just needed him to sleep no matter what I did, stressed that I was causing a bad habit that he'd be doing until he was 12...If all of that noise would have let up, I would have just been dealing with the anxiety of an exhausted new mom and not the added anxiety that something I was or wasn't doing was the reason I was so tired.

    I think Sonja started this thread so a lot of parents could realise that they are not doing anything wrong.

    You know I have a soft spot for you and am sorry you had such a rough time when bub was young.

    I think we have different understandings of the purpose behind this thread...I initially thought (whether it be right or wrong) that as the OP quoted my input in another thread and ended the post with "rant over" that it was more a 'robust' vent thread (perhaps bordering on debate even though that was stated as not being the intention) than a "you're not doing anything wrong so don't feel bad" thread?

    That being said my intention is not to make others feel bad. I get what you're saying - when questioned by others, before re-stating my position I have carefully weighed up the risk of a mum getting upset with my views v's this risk of a mum prematurely giving up on trying to help her older bub to sleep through because of the (IMO) inaccurate view that sleeping through is outside of a parents control. I hope that by remaining respectful I am minimizing any offence to the former group of mums.

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  15. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by meredithgrey View Post
    Oh man I did a home visit for a first time mum with a newborn (under a week old) who was already in anxiety-ridden panic state about doing everything "right" and spotted that book on her coffee table and figured she didn't stand a chance.
    The Poor mum - I hope she wasn't able to pick up on what you were thinking.

    On a side note there are unfortunately plenty of mums who don't have parenting books and are anxiety ridden and facing an uphill battle.
    This parenting gig is tough on all sorts.


 
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