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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearlessLeader View Post
    I am 34 and I do not consistently sleep through the night. Quick, someone get me on a TH routine stat! It must be environmental factors and it will surely be an easy fix!
    Haha this is usually my argument too. I still wake because I need a drink, need to pee, need a snack, too hot, too cold, am sleeping uncomfortably, want to cuddle… So I'm not too surprised that the toddler does too

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Squared View Post
    I don't think it's as black and white as either the Sonja's camp or VPs camp claim it to be.

    There are many experts who agree with VP, it's not just her after reading TH, her theory is widely accepted. I however am not so black and white hence the vast, vast majority of cases I've mentioned (and no this hasn't been formed by scientific research only my observations above coupled with the many many experts who agree with VP AND that BH isn't a true reflection if the general population - eg lots of bad sleepers in BH land only translates to some bad sleepers IRL) is because there are children out there I believe who don't have a physical or mental illness / problem who are a little more dependent upon their parents affections and cuddles to get back to sleep. Can those kids be 'changed' my feeling is potentially but I don't know every child that has ever lived so I won't say so black and white that they can.
    Do you think that that's true re bad sleepers? Off the top of my head, all 5 of my DDs little friends go through bad periods of sleep. They're almost 4. They don't sleep through every night, 7-7 without fail. I remember when DD was 6 weeks and I said to family we were staying with that DD was noisy cause she doesn't sleep through, they said their 4 year old didn't either, All those kids have been parented differently sleep wise. Perhaps people don't feel comfortable sharing in case they get criticised or offered advice they don't really want. I know that I don't really share that. Just offering a different perspective.

    My DD who will be 4 wakes up throughout the night a lot at the moment, and I think as VicPark suggests, that a environmental factor is partly at play (cold - it coincided with winter starting). We live in a cold climate and there isn't really anything different we can do. She also suffers from nightmares. But last night was a sleep through, and guess what, we did nothing different to any other night.

    Long ago, when she was a baby I got so worked up with this sleeping through business that I just decided to let it go and generally go with the flow. Sure there are some differences I've implemented (night weaning when she was 2 years, 2 months for eg) but I refuse to get caught in this constant mind battle of analysing her (and now DS's) sleep.

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  5. #33
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    Absolutely how I feel also 😀
    I'm a terrible sleeper, dh sleeps like a log.
    1 of my kids takes after his dad and is 12. Has always slept since he was 2 weeks old.
    My other 3 children are all non sleepers from birth until now ages 4, 7 and 17. I have done everything u can imagine and then some. They just aren't sleepers.
    And I often find it quite condescending to be told by others if I just did xyz they would sleep. I've tried that! Been trying it for 17 years and my kids don't sleep! Argh!
    I think there is a spectrum. The good sleepers, the non sleepers, and the kids in the middle who can be tweaked into being better sleepers. So those parents often seem to think a bit of hard work will transform them all into great sleepers. Not so. It's great if your kid is in the middle and s bit of persistence works for you but I can assure you none of those techniques work in my kids. My dd was even prescribed sedatives by the paed and even those didn't work lol.

  6. #34
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    @A-Squared I don't agree that "many experts" agree with TH. I don't think they do at all. I think many experts place value in a routine (not brain surgery) but as for her methods I actually think the opposite. Many experts don't like them but because of the industry built up around people like her are reluctant to be too negative.

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  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    @A-Squared I don't agree that "many experts" agree with TH. I don't think they do at all. I think many experts place value in a routine (not brain surgery) but as for her methods I actually think the opposite. Many experts don't like them but because of the industry built up around people like her are reluctant to be too negative.
    Sorry I didn't explain what I meant correctly. I don't refer to her methods of sleep training. Even gentle sleep advocates agree that with the right tools, children can get better sleep and sleep through. Sarah Blunden is one example.

  9. #36
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    Default Not every child will sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpysmurf View Post
    Absolutely how I feel also 😀
    I'm a terrible sleeper, dh sleeps like a log.
    1 of my kids takes after his dad and is 12. Has always slept since he was 2 weeks old.
    My other 3 children are all non sleepers from birth until now ages 4, 7 and 17. I have done everything u can imagine and then some. They just aren't sleepers.
    And I often find it quite condescending to be told by others if I just did xyz they would sleep. I've tried that! Been trying it for 17 years and my kids don't sleep! Argh!
    I think there is a spectrum. The good sleepers, the non sleepers, and the kids in the middle who can be tweaked into being better sleepers. So those parents often seem to think a bit of hard work will transform them all into great sleepers. Not so. It's great if your kid is in the middle and s bit of persistence works for you but I can assure you none of those techniques work in my kids. My dd was even prescribed sedatives by the paed and even those didn't work lol.
    I whole heatedly agree with your last paragraph. That is why I sit between the two camps as it's not so black and white which you just outlined. I just think and it's purely my opinion that there aren't that many that sit in the non-sleepers category.

    It really does come down to opinion as there is no research to confirm any of this, just what we all see in our every day lives. That's why I sit in the middle, there's NO evidence other than anecdotal to back up any one of our views on here, that's why they're just views. Not facts

  10. #37
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    I don't think I'm being black and white at all. I also agree that there is a spectrum when it comes to sleep. I recall the head of a sleep disorder unit in Melbourne saying years ago that in his experience with treating sleep disorders some babies will always sleep well, some babies will never sleep well and about 70% are somewhere in between.
    @A-Squared the only person saying it's black and white on here is VicPark. Not me.

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  12. #38
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    Default Not every child will sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I don't think I'm being black and white at all. I also agree that there is a spectrum when it comes to sleep. I recall the head of a sleep disorder unit in Melbourne saying years ago that in his experience with treating sleep disorders some babies will always sleep well, some babies will never sleep well and about 70% are somewhere in between.
    @A-Squared the only person saying it's black and white on here is VicPark. Not me.
    I know I mean the topic isn't black and white which is what I meant by the two 'camps' or schools of thought in this thread.

    I'm trying to play devils advocate here (as it's where my thoughts lie) In that it's not as black and white as VP says but I truly believe that not *all* kids who are labled 'bad sleepers' are truly bad sleepers. Yes they exist I completely 100% agree that they do (even those kids without physical or mental health issues) but *sometimes* even "bad sleepers" can become good sleepers.

    On the topic of sleep my DS (10 months old) has been waking 2 hourly the last 2 nights so I'm tired as and probably not as concise as I could be in my posts. Forgive me
    Last edited by A-Squared; 11-08-2015 at 09:01.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    I don't think I'm being black and white at all. I also agree that there is a spectrum when it comes to sleep. I recall the head of a sleep disorder unit in Melbourne saying years ago that in his experience with treating sleep disorders some babies will always sleep well, some babies will never sleep well and about 70% are somewhere in between.
    @A-Squared the only person saying it's black and white on here is VicPark. Not me.
    Nuh-ah! The figure I quoted and then re-reacted at the request of Harvs was 9.5/10 not 10/10

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    What I get annoyed with is normal childhood behaviour is deemed abnormal or unacceptable because it's inconvenient for some western parenting.

    I have a mix of Indian and non Indian friends. My Indian friends have kids that rarely have consistent naps, sleep everywhere, out late fairly often and overnight wake ups aren't even acknowledged as everyone cosleeps.

    So in comparison to that my kids are sleep too much and I'm a rigid parent who needs to relax.

    I hate the fact there is a need "to tweak" our kids. Why not just let them be? Every kid is different and the same parenting style won't suit everyone. If we accepted our kids have their own personality and that we need to parent to their needs vs some unknown standard then we would all be happier people.

    My 3yo is going thru a very clingy phase. She has no medical issues, no illness, teething nor is she an overtly anxious child. But if she sleeps with me in my bed she will sleep 7pm-6am straight with a 2-3hr nap. If she sleeps with dh she wakes a couple of times and needs reassurance and doesnt nap properly. If she sleeps with her sister, no wake ups. If she is by herself she gets really upset. So what she needs is me or my dd1 to be happy. Then I do everything I can to make my kids happy and emotionally calm. I'm not going to tweak her behaviour, nor her routine as I value her as her own person and I respect her needs.



    wifey of hubby who is always away. mother of two girls who are always amusing.

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