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  1. #351
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    harvs is offline Winner 2014 - Spirit of BubHub Award
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    I wasn't having a dig at you! It just made me think that this thread had been very civilised considering the topic and then decided to write about that. I guess I interpreted you saying it was stagnating as being boring cos that's what it would mean to me.

    While I think you and I have very different posting styles and clearly are coming from different philosophies on this one I have genuinely gained more insight into the 'other' side of this debate thanks to your posts. Often your camp (:-p) on the social media that I read about this topic comes across as heartless and narrow minded people baying for blood that haven't looked/thought beyond what they half-read in the media. In a lot of ways I understand where you have been coming from and I appreciate your contribution :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I think if there was a confirmed case of severe mental illness the President would grant clemency as with Schappelle. With the Brazillians case I think the Government are just trying to get their own diagnosis at the moment ? (Anyone could pay a doctor off). Or maybe I am pulling a Holly and being too trusting?

    Either way the thought of the Brazillian being executed makes me sick.
    That's a good point. Did Schapelle get clemency for mental illness? From reports I've read this guy is very unwell and it's been supported by prison guards but yeah unsure about actual diagnosis.

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    I'll miss you in this debate @heplusme but I'll see you in our DIG

  4. #354
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    Ok so havent read any replies since I posted the link.
    This really ****es me off. I read a post earlier about someone who knew dealers and smugglers and they always had an exit plan, were very careful and quite intelligent people. I wish this was the case with people I knew and the majority of cases i think (wish probably isn't the best word but you'll catch my drift.) Through the man I guess ill call my ex (although now I realise it was far from a relationship, more of a manipulating, abusive, using and perverted coupling I guess) I quickly met all the dealers and buyers and then other drug manufacturers in my small town radius (I keep saying small town but its approx 20,000 population) due to them cooking together, selling supplies to each other ect. I also slowly met the bigger guys further away. I didn't have all the connections by any means but had enough rapport with enough people to know my way around. I never met any of the big bosses because thats the way they keep it but I definitely knew people high up on the chain of command (yes obviously this, as far as I know, wasnt on an international scale) but within weeks of my 14th birthday I had "graduated" from just using and following around the ex wherever he went. I was doing my own sales (only single bags, was not big scale at the time)*and yes this is onr of the many things I told the police about myself after rehab* around the town and swapping meth for cold tablets ect then reporting back to the ex. I sat in on cooks but never participated (mainly due to my fear I would ruin in) and slowly when he wasnt producing or he didnt have X supply I would help move other cooks merchandise for them ect. I was 14, 15, 16 and felt all grown up. King ****. Top gun. Invincible. I was a damn drug lord dont ya know! I met heaps of other girls around my age and older longer term users who had "cracked". We were all working the same job. I look back now and cannot fathom my own stupidity. I wasn't the love of his life like I thought I was his tissue. Use me up until Im no longer useful. He cheated on me repeatedly (had plenty of girls looking for a freeby), abused me emotionally and physically, manipulated and lied to me non stop and yeah dumb *** me stayed around. Think what you want, i wasnt just sticking around for the drugs (addiction did play its part) I honestly thought we would get out of the business one day, cook for ourselves only or get clean together and be the perfect couple. I know now he was a dirty old man who felt like king **** because he had a cute little die hard fan following him around like a love sick puppy. I have no idea how I never got arrested in those 4 years (I guess you hang around sneaky for long enough you become sneaky) because I was 99% of the time carrying drugs, utensils or cooking supplies for him "because I had the handbag".
    Men like this are pathetic. They conciously and unconciously prey on the weak, daft, mentally disabled, naive, permanently brain fried users ect because we did what we were told, thought we were tough, it made us feel in control, or for some just the pull of drugs was enough and a whole slew of other answers. But the minute **** hit the fan he would have pushed me right in the deep end and leave me there without a ****ing paddle in sight. A few other girls i knew from brisbane and toowoomba who were in the same boat as me are now or have recently been released from jail because they took the fall. Not only are we easily lead and manipulated but were pretty easy to scare too. These **** kicker small rate drug cooks with a superiority complex dont have the connections to get you "taken care of" for ratting but you've been manipulated, abusived or mislead enough to have enough doubt in your mind that they actually might. And the big bosses of City gangs ect dont really give a **** if you rat. You get their cook arrested? They got another 5 lining up fresh out of Uni. You get their runners/dealers caught? Dime a dozen. They cops wont get **** on them because they keep their hands pretty damn clean. Even when the police know something about a higher up its often hard for them to do anything due to lack of evidence aside from some crazy meth heads statement (that had probably changed a few times as they come down) That's why they are the big bosses.

    Thats why I get so angry. People seek out those they can mold into their tissue whether its using drugs, cash, love, promises ect and make a big old tissue box of people to use and chuck away as they so please. This man clearly (my opinion) has big mental health issues. The fact that he immediately jumped in and claimed it was all him and the other men were not involved makes me assume he likely thought it wasnt a big deal because most bad drug users would prefer to chew their arm off than throw themselves under the bus for someone else. He will likely be killed without much if any compression of what is going on and that alone makes me feel physically sick.

    Did anyone read the article i posted the link to? If so, did you catch that line?

    " and that of all other 63 people on death row for drugs "
    Anyone have any info on the 60 others?
    Last edited by RaraMum; 07-03-2015 at 21:42.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaraMum View Post
    This is exactly right. Aside from rehabilitation they arent even in the same boat! Yes, drugs ruin lives, families and get people hurt/killed but in saying that it is an addiction. You have a choice at the beginning but after that your brain and body work on auto pilot making you "need" that next fix. Drugs force you into thinking you need your next hit, make you think you dont have a choice. Rapists and pedophiles are sick people but I don't care what people say, they have a choice. I wouldn't be up in arms but I don't think that people/governments/jurys and judges should have the power to take someones life away.

    Side note - maybe if Australia was tougher on pedophiles and rapists I would be up in arms because like hell I'd want to see them dead and in the ground when they can rot in prison for life. But thats a whole other discussion. ..
    I'm so far behind in this thread so unsure if this has been said. But, isn't pedaphilia considered a mental illness? Hence why they can't be rehabilitated? Totally not defending it but I feel that although they are different crimes they still ruin people's lives. I don't see one more worse than the other really. People being killed is a pretty big deal, one form of lives being ruined doesn't trump the other.

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    I'm so far behind in this thread so unsure if this has been said. But, isn't pedaphilia considered a mental illness? Hence why they can't be rehabilitated? Totally not defending it but I feel that although they are different crimes they still ruin people's lives. I don't see one more worse than the other really. People being killed is a pretty big deal, one form of lives being ruined doesn't trump the other.
    About 20 minutes ago I started typing our a well thought out and well meaning post in responce to this. 2 minutes ago I realised my response only got 2 paragraphs long before my good intentions flew out the window and the rest was mostly angry rambling with a bit of opinionated raving for good measure . I'll attempt a proper reply to you in the morning.

  7. #357
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by RaraMum View Post
    About 20 minutes ago I started typing our a well thought out and well meaning post in responce to this. 2 minutes ago I realised my response only got 2 paragraphs long before my good intentions flew out the window and the rest was mostly angry rambling with a bit of opinionated raving for good measure . I'll attempt a proper reply to you in the morning.
    I'm not meaning to argue with you or compare your situation to the above. What I'm saying is that they are both disorders, addiction and above (I actually don't want to type that word anymore). I googled and there's actually a difference between pedophiles and child mo1esters. Pedophiles suffer from the disorder but don't necessarily act on it whereas abusers choose to act on it.

    I'll say again that I do not agree with the death penalty, in any instance and I do hope the Indonesian government changes their mind. I was actually telling babyla I actually think I'm able to not get emotional about these guys' plight because I don't actually believe they'll be executed. Maybe that's me being too optimistic and trusting again....

    Regardless, I'm not going to be convinced that a drug smuggler's crime is 'not that bad.' They are responsible in playing a part in innocent lives being lost, whether they were the big guys or a few wrungs down and I think lives being ruined are lives being ruined, one isn't worse than the other.
    Last edited by HollyGolightly81; 08-03-2015 at 00:38.

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  9. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaraMum View Post
    Ok so havent read any replies since I posted the link.
    This really ****es me off. I read a post earlier about someone who knew dealers and smugglers and they always had an exit plan, were very careful and quite intelligent people. I wish this was the case with people I knew and the majority of cases i think (wish probably isn't the best word but you'll catch my drift.) Through the man I guess ill call my ex (although now I realise it was far from a relationship, more of a manipulating, abusive, using and perverted coupling I guess) I quickly met all the dealers and buyers and then other drug manufacturers in my small town radius (I keep saying small town but its approx 20,000 population) due to them cooking together, selling supplies to each other ect. I also slowly met the bigger guys further away. I didn't have all the connections by any means but had enough rapport with enough people to know my way around. I never met any of the big bosses because thats the way they keep it but I definitely knew people high up on the chain of command (yes obviously this, as far as I know, wasnt on an international scale) but within weeks of my 14th birthday I had "graduated" from just using and following around the ex wherever he went. I was doing my own sales (only single bags, was not big scale at the time)*and yes this is onr of the many things I told the police about myself after rehab* around the town and swapping meth for cold tablets ect then reporting back to the ex. I sat in on cooks but never participated (mainly due to my fear I would ruin in) and slowly when he wasnt producing or he didnt have X supply I would help move other cooks merchandise for them ect. I was 14, 15, 16 and felt all grown up. King ****. Top gun. Invincible. I was a damn drug lord dont ya know! I met heaps of other girls around my age and older longer term users who had "cracked". We were all working the same job. I look back now and cannot fathom my own stupidity. I wasn't the love of his life like I thought I was his tissue. Use me up until Im no longer useful. He cheated on me repeatedly (had plenty of girls looking for a freeby), abused me emotionally and physically, manipulated and lied to me non stop and yeah dumb *** me stayed around. Think what you want, i wasnt just sticking around for the drugs (addiction did play its part) I honestly thought we would get out of the business one day, cook for ourselves only or get clean together and be the perfect couple. I know now he was a dirty old man who felt like king **** because he had a cute little die hard fan following him around like a love sick puppy. I have no idea how I never got arrested in those 4 years (I guess you hang around sneaky for long enough you become sneaky) because I was 99% of the time carrying drugs, utensils or cooking supplies for him "because I had the handbag".
    Men like this are pathetic. They conciously and unconciously prey on the weak, daft, mentally disabled, naive, permanently brain fried users ect because we did what we were told, thought we were tough, it made us feel in control, or for some just the pull of drugs was enough and a whole slew of other answers. But the minute **** hit the fan he would have pushed me right in the deep end and leave me there without a ****ing paddle in sight. A few other girls i knew from brisbane and toowoomba who were in the same boat as me are now or have recently been released from jail because they took the fall. Not only are we easily lead and manipulated but were pretty easy to scare too. These **** kicker small rate drug cooks with a superiority complex dont have the connections to get you "taken care of" for ratting but you've been manipulated, abusived or mislead enough to have enough doubt in your mind that they actually might. And the big bosses of City gangs ect dont really give a **** if you rat. You get their cook arrested? They got another 5 lining up fresh out of Uni. You get their runners/dealers caught? Dime a dozen. They cops wont get **** on them because they keep their hands pretty damn clean. Even when the police know something about a higher up its often hard for them to do anything due to lack of evidence aside from some crazy meth heads statement (that had probably changed a few times as they come down) That's why they are the big bosses.

    Thats why I get so angry. People seek out those they can mold into their tissue whether its using drugs, cash, love, promises ect and make a big old tissue box of people to use and chuck away as they so please. This man clearly (my opinion) has big mental health issues. The fact that he immediately jumped in and claimed it was all him and the other men were not involved makes me assume he likely thought it wasnt a big deal because most bad drug users would prefer to chew their arm off than throw themselves under the bus for someone else. He will likely be killed without much if any compression of what is going on and that alone makes me feel physically sick.

    Did anyone read the article i posted the link to? If so, did you catch that line?

    " and that of all other 63 people on death row for drugs "
    Anyone have any info on the 60 others?
    This sounds like a completely harrowing time for you I'm so pleased for your ability to escape from such an ordeal and at such a young and impressionable age. The preying and grooming on young and vulnerable like this is despicable. It is a horrendous form of child abuse. It reminds me of something I saw about regional towns in Victoria and the scourge of ice using young kids to cook, deal etc..

  10. #359
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    I've been thinking about the whole - Australia should mind its own business argument and stay out of other countries affairs.. I've decided that it's BS. If countries didn't step in when other countries are breaking international law, abusing human rights and behaving in a way which is detrimental to our global society then we accept that behaviour as globally ok. If we took the approach of minding our business then we accept atrocities and say it's ok - it's not. It's not ok for Germany to slaughter 6mill Jews, it's not ok for human beings to be tortured and people globally to be oppressed without consequence for the perpetrators, it's not ok to marginalise and control people because of where they were born or their gender and it's not ok to jail people for having an opinion and a voice... F$%k no, this $hit is not ok and for other countries to sit by, watch, ignore or excuse it as "well that's their country" makes them enablers of torture, oppression and total disregard for human rights and they better expect the global community to get all up in their business.
    Last edited by babyla; 08-03-2015 at 07:55.

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  12. #360
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    ...
    Last edited by harvs; 08-03-2015 at 08:32.


 

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