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  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Yes. Anyone who chooses to take illegal drugs has to share at least part of the blame. Drugs is a complex issue and when the blame is spread so widely (user, seller, family, lack of community services etc) I don't think it's fair to pick one element out and shoot them.
    There are taking horrendous risks like, taking drugs/experimenting with drugs, and then there is being that calculated that you plan (and implement including recruiting others ) to commit a serious offence.

    Taking recreational drugs and risking your own life is quite different to choosing to be a mass supplier of illegal drugs, and breaking laws in another country, I don't see how that is "picking one element and shooting them", I see that as, a pair/group of clowns... That weren't 10 or 12 or 15 or 18 choosing to commit a major crime in a country that uses "death", and other horrendous forms of punishment as "deterrents/punishments".
    Whether anyone agrees or not, it is what has happened, where it happened...and it was a specific, planned action by these people.

    No, I don't agree with torture/death penalty etc.... But they made their choice.

  2. #312
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    Haha. Sorry, @harvs
    I can only draw that bow because I have previous experience with drug dealers and smugglers. And it didn't cloud my view on how they should be treated, just gave me a unique way of looking at a situation like they would. One of the first things they seem to look for is an "out" if they're caught. I couldn't figure what theirs would be until i realised that it would be Australia itself.
    Most dealers i used to know don't actually use the sh1t they peddle, they just supply it. So their brains aren't affected by the substances they use. They can still make logical decisions, weigh up the pros and cons and what they have at their disposal to save their sh1tty hides if they're ever busted. Well, there it was. Corby's case gave them what they needed and they used it.
    Most dealers and smugglers are not stupid. The stupid ones don't last. In fact, most of them are quite intelligent, often highly logical and rational people.

    i guess that's why i find it so hard to be sympathetic. From my own experiences, they are incredibly intelligent people who would have thought of everything before they started anything. It just hasn't quite worked out for them. Yet, anyway.

    Edit: Sorry, on my phone so takes me a while to type.
    @VicPark , one of them was 24. Are you telling me that one, singular year was so important to his developing brain that he wasn't able to think through his actions to their logical conclusion? He couldn't make this simple connection: If i am busted in Indonesia, i will be shot.
    He was 24, not 14. At some point, underdeveloped brains must stop being used as an excuse to do dumb sh1t. Or it must be used as an excuse for all things. And that would be a horrible, horrible thing.
    Last edited by Jennaisme; 07-03-2015 at 12:12.

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    At least part of the blame? They did it! No one forced them too. Millions of people grow up in messed up familys, abused and surrounded by dealers and they dont take drugs, deal drugs or organise international drug smuggling.

    Its like saying i got smacked as a child so it makes it ok for me to go and bash up my kids and husband. What happened to personal responsibility.
    Yes at least part of the blame. I am not sure why you are arguing with my post .. I thought my post covered anywhere from 5% to 95% responsibility depending on the persons individual circumstances. Yes I do think users should take a large chunk of responsibility - that's why I am so against the death penalty for drug smugglers because to a large extent the 'victim' has such a large degree of culpability.

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  5. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Yes at least part of the blame. I am not sure why you are arguing with my post .. I thought my post covered anywhere from 5% to 95% responsibility depending on the persons individual circumstances. Yes I do think users should take a large chunk of responsibility - that's why I am so against the death penalty for drug smugglers because to a large extent the 'victim' has such a large degree of culpability.
    I guess i think a person is 100% to blame for their own actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Haha. Sorry, @harvs
    I can only draw that bow because I have previous experience with drug dealers and smugglers. And it didn't cloud my view on how they should be treated, just gave me a unique way of looking at a situation like they would. One of the first things they seem to look for is an "out" if they're caught. I couldn't figure what theirs would be until i realised that it would be Australia itself.
    Most dealers i used to know don't actually use the sh1t they peddle, they just supply it. So their brains aren't affected by the substances they use. They can still make logical decisions, weigh up the pros and cons and what they have at their disposal to save their sh1tty hides if they're ever busted. Well, there it was. Corby's case gave them what they needed and they used it.
    Most dealers and smugglers are not stupid. The stupid ones don't last. In fact, most of them are quite intelligent, often highly logical and rational people.

    i guess that's why i find it so hard to be sympathetic. From my own experiences, they are incredibly intelligent people who would have thought of everything before they started anything. It just hasn't quite worked out for them. Yet, anyway.

    Edit: Sorry, on my phone so takes me a while to type.
    @VicPark , one of them was 24. Are you telling me that one, singular year was so important to his developing brain that he wasn't able to think through his actions to their logical conclusion? He couldn't make this simple connection: If i am busted in Indonesia, i will be shot.
    He was 24, not 14. At some point, underdeveloped brains must stop being used as an excuse to do dumb sh1t. Or it must be used as an excuse for all things. And that would be a horrible, horrible thing.
    You are missing my point. There is no excuse for doing dumb ****. Just explanations and mitigating factors. Regardless the death penalty is way over the top. Totally ****ed.

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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    I guess i think a person is 100% to blame for their own actions.
    The law doesn't agree. It's commonly recognised that there may be mitigating factors involved. That's why legislation covers a range of punishments and in the end it's up to a judge to decide the punishment for each offender. Eg. Heard on the news last night a judge let a woman convicted of manslaughter (of her ex) walk free - she was a battered woman. A woman that killed her husband because she wanted to shag another bloke would no doubt get a harsher sentence.

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  9. #317
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    Are you against the death penalty on humanitarian grounds or just in cases where in your view the punishment doesn't fit the crime?
    I may have missed a post where you mentioned it is why I ask.

  10. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    Are you against the death penalty on humanitarian grounds or just in cases where in your view the punishment doesn't fit the crime?
    I may have missed a post where you mentioned it is why I ask.
    All cases. Although my sleep would be a little more disturbed at night if I thought the crime wasn't that bad and the punishment was way over the top.

    Chan and Sukumaran- losing sleep over this.

    Child molester/abuser - wouldn't lose much sleep.

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  12. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    The law doesn't agree. It's commonly recognised that there may be mitigating factors involved. That's why legislation covers a range of punishments and in the end it's up to a judge to decide the punishment for each offender. Eg. Heard on the news last night a judge let a woman convicted of manslaughter (of her ex) walk free - she was a battered woman. A woman that killed her husband because she wanted to shag another bloke would no doubt get a harsher sentence.
    I understand, its just convenient that these mitigating factors only become a problem once they have been caught.

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    I haven't read back too far on this thread but here's my two cents worth anyway.

    I 100% don't agree with the death penalty! however they chose to do drugs in a country that has this penalty. There's no secret that drugs attract a death penalty in Bali. It is on huge signs on just about every street corner as well as signed everywhere in the airport. They chose to do this in a country that has this penalty, knowing all well what would happen if they were caught.

    What about the other 7 they were happy to blame all this on? They didn't care if they got executed or not.

    I also think it's unfair to blame all this on the Police. The two that did this are the ones who made the decision knowing the consequences. By law there are processes that have to be followed & if they're not, they are breaking the law & would also probably loose their jobs. I know if I were them I couldn't afford to risk loosing my job! It would've probably gone up through the chain of command to notify & not rested with the one person who was first notified. By this logic, why not blame the person who notified them? I also think that's unfair. I think you will find if there is evidence of a crime happening, Police by law have to report it. Imagine if they didn't report it & at the last minute they changed flights to another country/place or had a stop over somewhere & got off the plane. You've the got all those drugs on the street potentially hurting others.

    What about all the other people that are on death row in similar circumstances? The last executions there were females that faced the firing squad & no one really seemed to care about that.

    I really hope they do stop executions but in the mean time in think it's really unfair to blame people (Police) who were only doing their job & following their processes. If it went really bad & they had caught another flight & that came out in the media that they knew about it but did nothing & now there are all drugs on the street, you'd all be saying they didn't do their job & calling for them to be sacked.

    Anyway, everyone's entitled to their own opinions, that's just mine.

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