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  1. #301
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    I finally figured out why i find it so difficult to work up much sympathy/excitement for these two.
    It is simply because this reaction from the Australian public is exactly what they were betting on. Australian public and government were one of their "cards" so to speak. When they went to Indo was only 2 years after Schapelle Corby had been sentenced to death and as a result the Australian public went nuts, the government were bending over backward to get her onto a lighter sentence, everything was happening. The Indonesian government were then STARTING to rethink the sentence and reduce it to life.
    So i can't help but think this is exactly why they did it, while knowing what the usual sentence for drug smuggling is in Indonesia. I really think they bet their lives on Australia swooping in to save them if they were caught and it'd be all fine.
    So, basically they said a giant "f4ck you, I'm Australian" to Indonesia and just did what they liked.
    I have a huge problem with that. Not because i think the Death Penalty has any legitimacy to it, but because criminals should not be using the fact they're Australian to ignore another countrys rules and laws. Australia shouldn't be encouraging this type of behavior either.
    Go to another country and smuggle drugs? NO WORRIES, Australia will bail you out.
    Go to India and r@pe someone? NO WORRIES, being Australian affords you the right to break laws and get out of their punishments.
    Go to the states and commit mass murder? All good. We'll get you out of it.

    I think this is why I just can't work up any moral outrage. I can't feel sympathy for people who were happy to use being Australian as a get out of jail free card. It's not even they knew the punishment and still did it. Its they knew the punishment, still did it, and tried to manipulate the country into getting them out of it.

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  3. #302
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by CMF View Post
    I am a fence sitter on the Bali 9 duo, and these 2 quotes pretty much sum up my thoughts. They are criminals. No, they don't deserve to die, but they are convicted criminals who are 100% guilty... I find it kind of... unsettling... that so much emotion and effort is going in to saving them, that complete strangers are shedding tears for them, holding candlelight vigils... when they are criminals. I imagine the situation if they were to come home, people cheering and jumping up and down for joy, the media circus at the airport when they arrive... why are they much loved celebrities, when they are criminals? If they weren't caught, they'd probably still be doing it, I think they only 'rehabilitated' because they had nothing else to do, or maybe their lawyer suggested it to get leniency.

    I probably sound like a cold-hearted b!tch, and maybe I am, but I just can't seem to find a way to support these 2 getting let off, without it seeming inappropriate to my sensibilities. I do think how they've been handled is getting to be horrible, with this being dragged out for so long, but I just can't bring myself to go and get upset over it. :/
    I get what you are saying. They are criminals. IMO though when the punishment is grossly over the top to the point it's a human rights abuse then at that point they become a victim too.
    Last edited by VicPark; 07-03-2015 at 11:31.

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  5. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I finally figured out why i find it so difficult to work up much sympathy/excitement for these two.
    It is simply because this reaction from the Australian public is exactly what they were betting on. Australian public and government were one of their "cards" so to speak. When they went to Indo was only 2 years after Schapelle Corby had been sentenced to death and as a result the Australian public went nuts, the government were bending over backward to get her onto a lighter sentence, everything was happening. The Indonesian government were then STARTING to rethink the sentence and reduce it to life.
    So i can't help but think this is exactly why they did it, while knowing what the usual sentence for drug smuggling is in Indonesia. I really think they bet their lives on Australia swooping in to save them if they were caught and it'd be all fine.
    So, basically they said a giant "f4ck you, I'm Australian" to Indonesia and just did what they liked.
    I have a huge problem with that. Not because i think the Death Penalty has any legitimacy to it, but because criminals should not be using the fact they're Australian to ignore another countrys rules and laws. Australia shouldn't be encouraging this type of behavior either.
    Go to another country and smuggle drugs? NO WORRIES, Australia will bail you out.
    Go to India and r@pe someone? NO WORRIES, being Australian affords you the right to break laws and get out of their punishments.
    Go to the states and commit mass murder? All good. We'll get you out of it.

    I think this is why I just can't work up any moral outrage. I can't feel sympathy for people who were happy to use being Australian as a get out of jail free card. It's not even they knew the punishment and still did it. Its they knew the punishment, still did it, and tried to manipulate the country into getting them out of it.
    I think you're over thinking it. I doubt their whole operations to date was all about manipulating the public and sticking it to the Indonesians. It was more likely about young people whose brains had not yet fully matured wanting to make a quick buck, thinking they were invincible and then ****ting themselves and trying anything tt hey could once hey realised they had ****ed up and were up **** creek without a paddle.

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  7. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I think you're over thinking it. I doubt their whole operations to date was all about manipulating the public and sticking it to the Indonesians. It was more likely about young people whose brains had not yet fully matured wanting to make a quick buck, thinking they were invincible and then ****ting themselves and trying anything tt hey could once hey realised they had ****ed up and were up **** creek without a paddle.
    I was 12 when Schapelle Corby was arrested and then given the death penalty. Even at 12 I knew smuggling drugs in Indonesia = death penalty, because of the widely publicised Corby case.

    I don't buy the underdeveloped brain thing. They were greedy, not that moronic. Their brains may have been under developed, but if even a child can make the connection between drugs and the death penalty, then surely an adult can too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amgine View Post

    3) The people who choose to inject drugs, may just be children/teenagers from abusive homes that are trying to escape or a woman who has her drink spiked before she is raped. Are these the ones that should share the blame with drug dealers/smugglers/Bali 9 clowns? .
    Yes. Anyone who chooses to take illegal drugs has to share at least part of the blame. Drugs is a complex issue and when the blame is spread so widely (user, seller, family, lack of community services etc) I don't think it's fair to pick one element out and shoot them.

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  10. #306
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    @Jennaisme that's a whole lot of speculation there! I can see how you could come to that conclusion but it seems a pretty long bow to draw. Although I have to admit it's a thought process I never had - I sometimes think I am missing the chip where I second guess people's actions and thought processes like that. I kind of take a lot at face value. It would never occur to me that people would be strategic like that.

    When I talk about the fact that their brains haven't fully developed, I am referring to things like not 'fearing' death (which is why a lot of teenagers and young adults display such disregard for their own life with reckless behaviour) and immature impulse control/decision making skills.

    I absolutely agree with you that they weren't too young or dumb to know the consequences.

    Also, you were 12 when Schapelle was arrested? Thanks a bunch for making me feel ancient :-p

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  12. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Anyone who chooses to take illegal drugs has to share at least part of the blame.
    At least part of the blame? They did it! No one forced them too. Millions of people grow up in messed up familys, abused and surrounded by dealers and they dont take drugs, deal drugs or organise international drug smuggling.

    Its like saying i got smacked as a child so it makes it ok for me to go and bash up my kids and husband. What happened to personal responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennaisme View Post
    I was 12 when Schapelle Corby was arrested and then given the death penalty. Even at 12 I knew smuggling drugs in Indonesia = death penalty, because of the widely publicised Corby case.

    I don't buy the underdeveloped brain thing. They were greedy, not that moronic. Their brains may have been under developed, but if even a child can make the connection between drugs and the death penalty, then surely an adult can too?
    The brain is not fuller developed until a person is something like 25, that's a scientifically proven fact. Young people do know right from wrong but they can't properly assess risks and consequences. Hence young people often **** up ... Make ****ed up choices etc.

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  16. #309
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    At least part of the blame? They did it! No one forced them too. Millions of people grow up in messed up familys, abused and surrounded by dealers and they dont take drugs, deal drugs or organise international drug smuggling.

    Its like saying i got smacked as a child so it makes it ok for me to go and bash up my kids and husband. What happened to personal responsibility.
    No it wouldn't make it ok but it would make it a contributing factor to your behaviour. It's not an excuse but a context from which people can understand their life experiences, and take responsibility for their subsequent choices.

    Yes, people do make a choice to try drugs/cigarettes/alcohol/unhealthy food (often at an extremely young age). Not all do, true. But some do. And for some of those people the mere unfortunate fact of being born into the family they were makes them more vulnerable to making these choices.

    Your comment either ignores, discounts, devalues or shows a lack of understanding of the nature of addiction.

    ETA to clarify: what I mean is that often, where highly addictive drugs are concerned, there is only one time, the first, when 'choice' has anything to do with t.
    Last edited by harvs; 07-03-2015 at 12:10.

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  18. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    The brain is not fuller developed until a person is something like 25, that's a scientifically proven fact. Young people do know right from wrong but they can't properly assess risks and consequences. Hence young people often **** up ... Make ****ed up choices etc.
    So everyone under 25 should get off due to a lack of mental capacity?

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