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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    Can I play devil's advocate? What if we were dealing with the same people, the same punishment, the same circumstances with the AFP, same personal changes in prison but the crime was different? What if these men were pedophiles participating in an international child p.rnography ring? Would everyone be so up in arms then? Would everyone question the AFP about turning them in? I seriously suspect that there would be very little sympathy on the hub.
    Honestly, I wouldn't be in up in arms for them. I would have a totally different emotional reaction and zero sympathy. I know I would.

    But I'd be wrong. We shouldn't be allowed to decide who dies and who doesn't. That's why I think governments need to have an outright 'no death penalty' law so that people can't make emotion fuelled decisions to send people to death. There are certain issues that I simply can't look at rationally and objectively. That's where unambiguous laws with a strong foundation in human rights and ethics are important. To protect us from making bad decisions when we switch to vigilante mode.
    Last edited by MissMuppet; 06-03-2015 at 23:17.

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  3. #282
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    True. I've often said I think drug smuggling isn't that bad a crime it deserves the death penalty. Heck when the victims are partly to blame the offenders can't be *that* bad. Pedophilia is a different ball game. The victims are totally innocent. To be honest I would probably be still against the death penalty but I wouldn't go out of my way for them.
    This is what is getting me though, you're saying that for you it is whatever you gauge as 'bad enough.' I don't know much about South East Asia's drug problem but I do know about Mexico's and people doing the same type of crime there are helping an industry that is killing completely innocent people. Thousands of people have gone missing and been murdered for simply being family members or in the vicinity of people like this. Being a drug smuggler doesn't just end with the junkies.

    I have such a hard time feeling sympathy for people who willingly participated in this and probably would have kept doing it if they hadn't have been caught. I don't think they should be killed but I can't bring myself to think 'these poor guys' either.

    ETA: here's an example of innocent people being murdered in Mexico's drug crisis

    http://www.economist.com/news/americ...d-do-more-find

    And another
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021203937.html

    This isn't including the 40+ university students that have recently gone missing.
    Last edited by HollyGolightly81; 07-03-2015 at 01:24.

  4. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissMuppet View Post
    Honestly, I wouldn't be in up in arms for them. I would have a totally different emotional reaction and zero sympathy. I know I would.

    But I'd be wrong. We shouldn't be allowed to decide who dies and who doesn't. That's why I think governments need to have an outright 'no death penalty' law so that people can't make emotion fuelled decisions to send people to death. There are certain issues that I simply can't look at rationally and objectively. That's where unambiguous laws with a strong foundation in human rights and ethics are important. To protect us from making bad decisions when we switch to vigilante mode.
    I couldn't agree with you more on all of this MissM!

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  6. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    This is what is getting me though, you're saying that for you it is whatever you gauge as 'bad enough.' I don't know much about South East Asia's drug problem but I do know about Mexico's and people doing the same type of crime there are helping an industry that is killing completely innocent people. Thousands of people have gone missing and been murdered for simply being family members or in the vicinity of people like this. Being a drug smuggler doesn't just end with the junkies.

    I have such a hard time feeling sympathy for people who willingly participated in this and probably would have kept doing it if they hadn't have been caught. I don't think they should be killed but I can't bring myself to think 'these poor guys' either.

    ETA: here's an example of innocent people being murdered in Mexico's drug crisis

    http://www.economist.com/news/americ...d-do-more-find

    And another
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021203937.html

    This isn't including the 40+ university students that have recently gone missing.
    There's no debating from me on the sheer horror and devastation of this for me. It's horrific.

    My empathy comes from seeing true rehabilitation. I believe people can change their lives around, I don't believe they're all bad. I see the death penalty here as such a waste of 2 young men who have made an incredible impact on themselves and others at Kerobokan.

    It is that I feel empathy for these men and their families but it's also about the debate and belief around the point of death penalty and the purpose it serves, the notion of rehabilitation and the purpose of a penal system. It's more than just feeling for these poor guys.

    Here's a video of Myu:

    http://info.mercycampaign.org/myuran-sukumaran/
    Last edited by babyla; 07-03-2015 at 06:01.

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  8. #285
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    Execution is being delayed now I believe. Only saw news headlines as I was getting DD dressed so not 100% on whats happening

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    I wouldnt be up in arms, part of what I find so awful about this is that I don't think the punishment fits the crime and I do believe people can be rehabilitated after drug addiction. most peadophiles can't be rehabilitated , the stats prove it. I believe that they deserve life in prison with no chance of parole, I still wouldn't agree with the death penalty, but I wouldn't be signing petitions etc, sane goes for murderers (not self defence stuff).

    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    Can I play devil's advocate? What if we were dealing with the same people, the same punishment, the same circumstances with the AFP, same personal changes in prison but the crime was different? What if these men were pedophiles participating in an international child p.rnography ring? Would everyone be so up in arms then? Would everyone question the AFP about turning them in? I seriously suspect that there would be very little sympathy on the hub.

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  11. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I wouldnt be up in arms, part of what I find so awful about this is that I don't think the punishment fits the crime and I do believe people can be rehabilitated after drug addiction. most peadophiles can't be rehabilitated , the stats prove it. I believe that they deserve life in prison with no chance of parole, I still wouldn't agree with the death penalty, but I wouldn't be signing petitions etc, sane goes for murderers (not self defence stuff).
    This is exactly right. Aside from rehabilitation they arent even in the same boat! Yes, drugs ruin lives, families and get people hurt/killed but in saying that it is an addiction. You have a choice at the beginning but after that your brain and body work on auto pilot making you "need" that next fix. Drugs force you into thinking you need your next hit, make you think you dont have a choice. Rapists and pedophiles are sick people but I don't care what people say, they have a choice. I wouldn't be up in arms but I don't think that people/governments/jurys and judges should have the power to take someones life away.

    Side note - maybe if Australia was tougher on pedophiles and rapists I would be up in arms because like hell I'd want to see them dead and in the ground when they can rot in prison for life. But thats a whole other discussion. ..
    Last edited by RaraMum; 07-03-2015 at 08:26.

  12. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    This is what is getting me though, you're saying that for you it is whatever you gauge as 'bad enough.' I don't know much about South East Asia's drug problem but I do know about Mexico's and people doing the same type of crime there are helping an industry that is killing completely innocent people. Thousands of people have gone missing and been murdered for simply being family members or in the vicinity of people like this. Being a drug smuggler doesn't just end with the junkies.

    I have such a hard time feeling sympathy for people who willingly participated in this and probably would have kept doing it if they hadn't have been caught. I don't think they should be killed but I can't bring myself to think 'these poor guys' either.

    ETA: here's an example of innocent people being murdered in Mexico's drug crisis

    http://www.economist.com/news/americ...d-do-more-find

    And another
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021203937.html

    This isn't including the 40+ university students that have recently gone missing.
    These guys aren't on the same level of Mexican drug cartels though, not even close. I can see what you are trying to say, but most drug smugglers are addicts themselves, they are not the ringleaders. The ringleaders of this particular smuggling ring didn't even get charged, the authorities know who they are but don't have enough to get them on it.
    Mexican drug cartels are cold blooded murderers on a massive scales, these guys have never murdered anyone.

    Re the mental health issues, every single person I've ever known who ended up an addict had mental health issues, or trauma in their lives, even if they weren't officially diagnosed. It was obvious.

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  14. #289
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    I see your point Holly. I do tend to agree with @MissMuppet though.

    For me, we all have a moral compass and continuum. For me, the death penalty is at the very end of my continuum - sure, just next to that is people who harm children, and I do have some issues with people who harm children being given special protection in jail, but to me the death penalty is still worse.

    I actually have a bit of a sick fascination with the death penalty. I read a lot about people on death row around the world - what their behaviour was in jail, what crimes they committed, what kind of life they had growing up etc. I can only think of one crime I read about that was so grim I kind of didn't feel so sad that they were being put to death.

    For me, it is important that I maintain my respect for human life regardless of whether others display that respect also, otherwise I am not so different from them.

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    On the *low or high level* thing. Taking a pill at the club or smoking a joint is low level involvement on a local scale. Dealimg users are a step up and then the local cooks ect. When you step up to international drug cartels or syndicates then its a hell of a lot different. These guys were the bottom of the barrel. They are disposable (to drug ring big bosses) and mean little in their big picture. They get picked up? Lost a few kilos but there is another 30 kids lining up down the block to strap another load to their feet. Yeah they had done it before but the big bosses wouldn't have lost much sleep over loosing them. They are the local junkie dealers. Just on a bigger scale.

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