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  1. #271
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    I'm sure there's something regarding diplomatic relations, international procedure, etc that explains why the AFP did what they did and why we do not understand. This probably has a lot to do with Indonesia's stance on drugs and the fact that the Bali 9 had the drugs IN Indonesia, whether they were smuggling out or not. I understand why people are questioning the AFP but at the end of the day we are all responsible for the choices we make and I do think it's a bit unfair to hold the AFP responsible for these men's lives.

    Perhaps you are too trusting?

    As far as I am aware there is no law that would have compelled the AFP to give a heads up to the Indonesians. If there was an international convention of some sort then who gives a crap. Countries lie and keep secrets to avoid so called international 'obligations' and appease their own population all the time. I'm guessing it's a case of the AFP at the time not having robust enough governance and oversight - a lack of checks and balances to ensure that in their quest to do the mission they weren't so focused that they were blind to the fact they were ****ing up majorly on a humanitarian level. IMO there is no excuse for putting Australian citizens in a situation where they might face the death penalty.
    Last edited by VicPark; 06-03-2015 at 21:11.

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  3. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by munchkin275 View Post
    I dont want to quote everyone that has referenced drug dealers and smugglers being responsible for the deaths of drug users as i will be here all night. I will probably get shot down but here goes.......

    People are carrying on about the drugs but how about getting angry about the issues driving people to abuse drugs in the first place? How about tackling domestic violence and child abuse in our community. How about improving community awareness and mental health services! How about providing further training and education to young people.

    The death penalty is as contradictory and corrupt as much as the 'war on drugs'.

    Sent from my GT-I9507 using The Bub Hub mobile app
    I agree with the sentiment but not all drug users are from violent, abusive homes or have mental health issues. There are plenty of drug addicts from stable, loving homes where their addiction has resulted in all kinds of devastation to the community. It's an issue that cuts a bit close for me having 2 brothers with various drug issues.

  4. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    I agree with the sentiment but not all drug users are from violent, abusive homes or have mental health issues. There are plenty of drug addicts from stable, loving homes where their addiction has resulted in all kinds of devastation to the community. It's an issue that cuts a bit close for me having 2 brothers with various drug issues.
    If you read my comment I listed more than just abusive situations.

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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Perhaps you are too trusting?

    As far as I am aware there is no law that would have compelled the AFP to give a heads up to the Indonesians. If there was an international convention of some sort then who gives a crap. Countries lie and keep secrets to avoid so called international 'obligations' and appease their own population all the time. I'm guessing it's a case of the AFP at the time not having robust enough governance and oversight - a lack of checks and balances to ensure that in their quest to do the mission they weren't so focused that they were blind to the fact they were ****ing up majorly on a humanitarian level. IMO there is no excuse for putting Australian citizens in a situation where they might face the death penalty.
    Maybe I am. I don't know enough about the situation to feel I can say the AFP fudged up. And I do tend to trust authorities. It's like how I trust scientists about climate change or immunizations, I feel they have a much more knowledge than I do.

    I'm not advocating for the death penalty, I am against it and I do not think these two should be on death row. I do not think their punishment has fit their crime. I do think 10 years in an Indonesian prison is probably enough. But regardless of all those thoughts I do have a hard time mustering up a lot of compassion for them. I don't consider them low-level but I do agree with babyla that the drug scene is a vicious cycle of so many factors.

    I really don't know how to explain my thoughts on it all. I feel they do deserve a second chance but at the same time I'm not loosing sleep over their plight. Who would have thought I would be the harder a$$ in this situation.
    Last edited by HollyGolightly81; 06-03-2015 at 22:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Perhaps you are too trusting?
    I think that the AFP, police and defence have their reasons and they don't have to share certain information with the general public. We have this insatiable desire for information these days its really not in the public interest to know everything they are dealing with or doing. I dont think its that im too trusting..

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    I am against the death penalty.

    I dont think they 'deserve a second chance' or anything else ... but neither do I think they deserve the death penalty. It is just wrong to me.

    As far as the AFP goes - obviously they had a lot more information and reasons for doing what they did. I am not going to condemn those decisions - but I do wonder how much damage this has done to their reputation here at home.

    who will trust them with information now? who would talk to them knowing what they do with that information and how much they respect their ethical and moral responsibilities?

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    Is it really their job to decide whats ethical and moral though? Just from this thread you can see there are so many different views on whats ethical...in the long run they just dot the 'i's and take orders from someone higher then them.

    I honestly dont know what Scott Rushs father thought the outcome would be..

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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Can I play devil's advocate? What if we were dealing with the same people, the same punishment, the same circumstances with the AFP, same personal changes in prison but the crime was different? What if these men were pedophiles participating in an international child p.rnography ring? Would everyone be so up in arms then? Would everyone question the AFP about turning them in? I seriously suspect that there would be very little sympathy on the hub.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Is it really their job to decide whats ethical and moral though? Just from this thread you can see there are so many different views on whats ethical...in the long run they just dot the 'i's and take orders from someone higher then them.

    I honestly dont know what Scott Rushs father thought the outcome would be..
    Ahhh... Maybe he thought the police would try and talk his son out of it? Or at least arrest him and his colleagues on Australian soil?

    It's the duty of every public servant to ensure they act within the boundaries of Australian law. It's the duty of every manager to ensure that broader policies and Activities are within the boundaries of what their Minister and the General public would consider to be moral.

    I really don't think this is a tough or even borderline moral issue. It's not bloody difficult to see that handing someone over to a country that will likely kill them is pretty ****ed up. Not even a close call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    Can I play devil's advocate? What if we were dealing with the same people, the same punishment, the same circumstances with the AFP, same personal changes in prison but the crime was different? What if these men were pedophiles participating in an international child p.rnography ring? Would everyone be so up in arms then? Would everyone question the AFP about turning them in? I seriously suspect that there would be very little sympathy on the hub.
    True. I've often said I think drug smuggling isn't that bad a crime it deserves the death penalty. Heck when the victims are partly to blame the offenders can't be *that* bad. Pedophilia is a different ball game. The victims are totally innocent. To be honest I would probably be still against the death penalty but I wouldn't go out of my way for them.

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