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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    The highlighted part is not so clear cut. The Mutual Assistance Treaty processes upon the arrest of the Bali 9 were not so clear cut back then and there were grey areas in terms of procedures which when dealing with foreign police forces which could expose an Australian citizen to the death penalty. If this happened today then Australia would not have 3 Australian citizens on death row at the hands of decisions made by unclear and shady processes/procedures by the AFP. There role is certainly not to babysit - it is also not to assist foreign police in cases where the death penalty may be imposed - this is according to the AFP's own Death Penalty Charge Guide.
    Just read this. Still catching up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I'm not convinced of Schapelle's guilt either. I remember a public outcry though. I think Indonesia's history is enough to question all convictions, particularly those from other countries, they seem to be very lenient when it comes to their own. At least here we and foreigners are all treated equally.
    I agree. And there was outcry in the beginning, but it changed a lot. This is kind of off topic, but you might find this website interesting. It's about the whole Schapelle Corby thing www.expendable.tv

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  4. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    I'm sure there's something regarding diplomatic relations, international procedure, etc that explains why the AFP did what they did and why we do not understand. This probably has a lot to do with Indonesia's stance on drugs and the fact that the Bali 9 had the drugs IN Indonesia, whether they were smuggling out or not. I understand why people are questioning the AFP but at the end of the day we are all responsible for the choices we make and I do think it's a bit unfair to hold the AFP responsible for these men's lives.
    I actually posted a link that goes through this in thorough detail. It is quite full on but a very interesting read.

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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Thanks munchkin, I'll try to read it later today.

    This is obviously a very basic summary linked below. But, when people participate in the drug trade they are playing a part in violent crime (murders, robberies, terrorism, etc). They are helping fund and create a market for violent crimes and drugs. It does not just end with the junkies. By participating in trafficking they are playing a part in people getting murdered, in human trafficking, etc. the drug trade is despicable.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade

    Et: please do not think this means I believe their punishment fits their crime or that I'm advocating for the death penalty. I am making this point because with some people there is an air that what these guys did 'isn't that bad.' (I don't necessarily mean anyone in this thread, just comments I've seen on Facebook as well).
    Last edited by HollyGolightly81; 06-03-2015 at 19:37.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HollyGolightly81 View Post
    Thanks munchkin, I'll try to read it later today.

    This is obviously a very basic summary linked below. But, when people participate in the drug trade they are playing a part in violent crime (murders, robberies, terrorism, etc). They are helping fund and create a market for violent crimes and drugs. It does not just end with the junkies. By participating in trafficking they are playing a part in people getting murdered, in human trafficking, etc. the drug trade is despicable.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade

    Et: please do not think this means I believe their punishment fits their crime or that I'm advocating for the death penalty. I am making this point because with some people there is an air that what these guys did 'isn't that bad.' (I don't necessarily mean anyone in this thread, just comments I've seen on Facebook as well).
    I agree with you, it's completely despicable. I guess I just feel that low level drug runners (chan and sukumaran are low level, their role was different to the mules but it was still not a ring leader, drug baron or funding role) are victims of it too. Mules and other low level people are often people in very sad, desperate situations and often with drug problem themselves. Many of the bali 9 had issues with substance abuse, some with learning difficulties too and without wanting to be condescending somewhat simple in their cognitive abilities and life experience.

    The drug trade us a vicious cycle and the only people who truly profit are the high level people who fund it, they prey on everyone else to do their filthy bidding. That's why I'm against prohibition. It completely hands over control to a black market of which we as a society have little to no control over.

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    Can i ask what everyone's idea of 'low level' drug involvement is? Personally i would have thought low level would be taking 2 pills into nightclub, or smoking pot at home...not taking 8kg of heroin into another country let alone orchestrating a group of 9 mules. Even pertaining to smuggling, it wasn't taking a joint or one pill overseas.

    I don't believe these two were mentally impaired organizing this (they got away with it 3 times prior) so they were obviously smart men. They aren't exactly the kingpins potrayed in American movies, but they aren't your average joe drug user either.

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    Not to be rude, but to me it's irrelevant. I am anti death penalty full stop. I am not in the business of rating how bad their crime was in the universal scheme of things - I just don't agree with the punishment.

    I don't shed tears for them because I think what they did isn't that bad. I shed tears for them because I believe the death penalty is one of the scourges of humanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Can i ask what everyone's idea of 'low level' drug involvement is? Personally i would have thought low level would be taking 2 pills into nightclub, or smoking pot at home...not taking 8kg of heroin into another country let alone orchestrating a group of 9 mules. Even pertaining to smuggling, it wasn't taking a joint or one pill overseas.

    I don't believe these two were mentally impaired organizing this (they got away with it 3 times prior) so they were obviously smart men. They aren't exactly the kingpins potrayed in American movies, but they aren't your average joe drug user either.
    We're not talking about drug "involvement" or drug dealing, we're talking about drug trafficking which involves specific roles to those involved.

    Chan and Sukumarans roles were "on the ground" they were "field workers" - see diagram page 21

    http://www.popcenter.org/library/crimeprevention/volume_11/12-natarajan.pdf

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    I dont want to quote everyone that has referenced drug dealers and smugglers being responsible for the deaths of drug users as i will be here all night. I will probably get shot down but here goes.......

    People are carrying on about the drugs but how about getting angry about the issues driving people to abuse drugs in the first place? How about tackling domestic violence and child abuse in our community. How about improving community awareness and mental health services! How about providing further training and education to young people.

    The death penalty is as contradictory and corrupt as much as the 'war on drugs'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    We're not talking about drug "involvement" or drug dealing, we're talking about drug trafficking which involves specific roles to those involved.

    Chan and Sukumarans roles were "on the ground" they were "field workers" - see diagram page 21

    http://www.popcenter.org/library/crimeprevention/volume_11/12-natarajan.pdf
    I don't know, personally i don't think being ballsy enough to smuggle drugs internationally is low-level, no matter what your role is. In the long run they are all there for an quick and easy pay day.

    Harvs, Im not rating anything in relation to the death penalty, i was just curious as i had seen them referred to as low level a few times in this thread, and that didn't match my personal understanding/belief. Therefore was interested in others personal understandings.

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