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  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    No . They share the blame with the people that choose to ingest that crap in the first place. That's one of the reasons why I am against the death penalty in this case - because the 'victims' share such a large degree of culpability.
    I agree with you, where is the personal responsibility? To suggest that drug pushers are the only reason people die from drugs is ridiculous. I hate heroin, it does destroy lives, but drug takers have to take responsibility too.

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  3. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Because it sets a precedence. Fact is, they were doing their jobs as they are required. They weren't the ones breaking the law. Blaming them for the actions of others is unjust.
    I'm not sure it is in our best interests to give cases over to Indonesia when we know they breach human rights, that goes for any other country. Of course there will be times when we have to, but in this instance, we could have dealt with it ourselves. All we would have had to do is flag their names at the airport when they entered and picked them up here. We are talking about Indonesia, one of the most corrupt systems in the world, where bribery reaches the highest levels, and yet we expect them to be fair and just?

    Also, I see no problem discussing organisations and their decisions, after all they are public servants, we are their stakeholders. And lastly, it may be that hey worked within the legislative framework, but not all laws are good, maybe there needs to be a change.

    I just can't fathom how anyone can all be like "it's their laws, they knew what they were doing" what people like that are effectively saying is, even though they breach human rights and have an unjust, biased and corrupt system, we shouldn't say anything about it. I find that odd. Iran puts gay people to death by public hanging, that is their law, so is that ok too?

  4. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    It is also illegal to possess drugs. If they knew they had drugs, and they were allowed to board the plane the AFP would have been taking ownership of their actions whilst on that flight. Then hope they dont dispose of the drugs on the flight.

    Again, why is it the AFPs job to babysit criminals? They broke the law.
    How about we change the question. Why wouldn't the AFP try and save some citizens lives? That is what it comes down to, they tipped off Indonesia knowing full well it would end in death. And for what? So a couple of low level drug smugglers are off the streets, meanwhile the big guns are off living a life of luxury. I absolutely think we need to crack down on drugs, but we'll never get anywhere picking off the little guys one by one.

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  6. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I'm not sure it is in our best interests to give cases over to Indonesia when we know they breach human rights, that goes for any other country. Of course there will be times when we have to, but in this instance, we could have dealt with it ourselves. All we would have had to do is flag their names at the airport when they entered and picked them up here. We are talking about Indonesia, one of the most corrupt systems in the world, where bribery reaches the highest levels, and yet we expect them to be fair and just?

    Also, I see no problem discussing organisations and their decisions, after all they are public servants, we are their stakeholders. And lastly, it may be that hey worked within the legislative framework, but not all laws are good, maybe there needs to be a change.

    I just can't fathom how anyone can all be like "it's their laws, they knew what they were doing" what people like that are effectively saying is, even though they breach human rights and have an unjust, biased and corrupt system, we shouldn't say anything about it. I find that odd. Iran puts gay people to death by public hanging, that is their law, so is that ok too?
    Beebs it is very, very clear from this thread how you feel. You have stated it many time. And i believe we have already discussed my opinion on other countries in the first few pages of this thread so i will not repeat myself.

    I have not once said i think they deserve to die. I have not once said the death penalty isn't an abuse of human rights. I have not once said it is ok so live in the 1800's when it comes to such a disregard of human life.

    The law cannot please everyone. The AFP were doing their jobs.

    We cannot control backwards developing countries. If we could thousands of women wouldn't get raped and kidnapped in Africa, families wouldn't be escaping extremists in the middle east in droves. Its easy to think the world is a lovely place from our safe little cul-de-sacs in Aus, fact is its not.

  7. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    How about we change the question. Why wouldn't the AFP try and save some citizens lives? That is what it comes down to, they tipped off Indonesia knowing full well it would end in death. And for what? So a couple of low level drug smugglers are off the streets, meanwhile the big guns are off living a life of luxury. I absolutely think we need to crack down on drugs, but we'll never get anywhere picking off the little guys one by one.
    It didn't automatically lead to death. They got life, they appealed and got death. I also wouldn't describe them as low level, but that's a matter of perspective.

  8. #236
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    I would like to point out I am not trying to change anyone's mind, and realise you aren't trying to change mine.

    I still think it ok to question our procedures though, in all things, from media, to health to the AFP. I was a public servant for a very long time, and absolutely defend the publics right to question procedures. Of course, I don't think it will change anything.

    Sorry if I am getting a bit emotional about this topic, it makes me realise (exactly what you said) that the world isn't a lovely place, that peoples lives mean so little and I find that really scary. Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Beebs it is very, very clear from this thread how you feel. You have stated it many time. And i believe we have already discussed my opinion on other countries in the first few pages of this thread so i will not repeat myself.

    I have not once said i think they deserve to die. I have not once said the death penalty isn't an abuse of human rights. I have not once said it is ok so live in the 1800's when it comes to such a disregard of human life.

    The law cannot please everyone. The AFP were doing their jobs.

    We cannot control backwards developing countries. If we could thousands of women wouldn't get raped and kidnapped in Africa, families wouldn't be escaping extremists in the middle east in droves. Its easy to think the world is a lovely place from our safe little cul-de-sacs in Aus, fact is its not.

  9. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by munchkin275 View Post
    If you read the second link, this is the exact argument that those that were convicted are using in their case against the AFP

    Sent from my GT-I9507 using The Bub Hub mobile app
    Thanks, I missed the second link the first time I went through. I'll have to read that when the kids are in bed, looks like heavy going!

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  11. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Sorry if I am getting a bit emotional about this topic, it makes me realise (exactly what you said) that the world isn't a lovely place, that peoples lives mean so little and I find that really scary. Sorry
    Maybe that is exactly why i seem like i am lacking in empathy. This particular topic has made you realise that, but some realised it much earlier then this particular issue. Its not that i don't care, its that I'm not surprised.

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    Ok I guess I'm finding this difficult to grasp because no one was talking about these human rights abuses when it was happening to non-Australians. All of a sudden it matters and everyone is outraged. When Schapelle Corby (who I think was innocent) was let out on parole I found most people had very little sympathy for what she's been through (I know she's alive and they won't be, but I'm more just referring to compassion in general).
    And yes, drug users are responsible for their own lives, but I'm not going to feel much pity for the people who put those addictive drugs on the street to pray on (let's face it) very vulnerable people. Hurting yourself is one thing. Hurting others is entirely different.

    I'm completely against the death penalty. I don't think they deserve what's happening. I'm more skeptical about why people all of a sudden feel outraged. This has been going on for a long time.

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  14. #240
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Because it sets a precedence. Fact is, they were doing their jobs as they are required. They weren't the ones breaking the law. Blaming them for the actions of others is unjust.
    Sorry I don't buy it. Did the law say they HAD to work with international colleagues to arrest criminals? There are many ways a job can be done. Waiting until the offenders arrived in Australia to arrest them can hardly be seen as the police not doing their job.
    Last edited by VicPark; 06-03-2015 at 15:36.

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