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  1. #101
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    There seems to be two main trains of thought in this thread, those that believe some people deserve a second chance, and those that don't. It seems a pretty straight forward argument to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    There seems to be two main trains of thought in this thread, those that believe some people deserve a second chance, and those that don't. It seems a pretty straight forward argument to me.
    What do you mean by a second chance? To live? To be released? Lots of people who may benefit from a second chance don't get it - both overseas and in Australia. What is it about these two that is different in everybody's mind?

    ETA - I am not saying they don't deserve a second chance. Just curious as to your reasoning.

  3. #103
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    I've been reading about them, by all accounts, not only are the clean, but the spend their time helping others to get off drugs, one is now a pastor and the other an artist, they run drug support groups and teach Art classes, raise money for charities etc.

    The things that strike me most about this case though, are the double standards Indonesia is displaying, they are far more lenient on their own people than foreigners who do the same crimes. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

    I think the death penalty is a breach of human rights, and I think that we have the right to ask for clemency, I don't agree with the view that it is their way so we must just let it go. That goes for any country. And just because I happen to be talking about this particular thing right now, doesn't mean I don't talk about other world issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by sajimum View Post
    What do you mean by a second chance? To live? To be released? Lots of people who may benefit from a second chance don't get it - both overseas and in Australia. What is it about these two that is different in everybody's mind?

    ETA - I am not saying they don't deserve a second chance. Just curious as to your reasoning.

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    PomPoms  (16-02-2015),sajimum  (16-02-2015),TimTamsandTea  (28-02-2015)

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I've been reading about them, by all accounts, not only are the clean, but the spend their time helping others to get off drugs, one is now a pastor and the other an artist, they run drug support groups and teach Art classes, raise money for charities etc.

    The things that strike me most about this case though, are the double standards Indonesia is displaying, they are far more lenient on their own people than foreigners who do the same crimes. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

    I think the death penalty is a breach of human rights, and I think that we have the right to ask for clemency, I don't agree with the view that it is their way so we must just let it go. That goes for any country. And just because I happen to be talking about this particular thing right now, doesn't mean I don't talk about other world issues.
    Sorry, I didn't mean that you in particular don't talk about other world issues, just that Australia as a whole seems to have picked this case when very little is outwardly done/discussed in many other situations. I agree with you that the death penalty is a breach of human rights and we should ask for clemency. I also agree that Indonesia has a bad record in these situations.

    As to their behaviour while in jail. If they receive clemency then I guess we will see if they are rehabilitated. They certainly have motivation to present themselves well in the hopes of getting a reprieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Well i find the "i look at things emotionally" a bit wishful and nonsensical.

    If we placed sanctions on every country that we disagreed with we would have no trade. The government needs trade to make money. We need money for our citizens to claim welfare. We need welfare to stop people ending up on the streets and in turn committing crimes. I think its all good and well to be positive and wish for change, but history shows that it wont happen, certainly not in our lifetimes. If it was that easy, the war in Iraq and Afganistan would have made some difference and in turn the countries would be thriving.

    We are lucky we were born into an advanced society, but we cant forget that others arnt. If you go in guns blazing trying to change their ways, which they have developed over thousands of years, we start a war. Who has to be in the front line of that war? Our defence force personell (who all have mothers, brothers and sons).

    So excuse me if i look at things logically. I think the bigger picture is important and in no way is it dismissive, it is just looking deeper into the issue.
    I don't mean you personally.

    I also look at things logically. I don't think investigating things in multiple ways makes it wishful thinking or non sensical.

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  9. #106
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    You know, I hate myself for this...
    ...but there is a voice in my head saying,
    "You go to a country with the death penalty, and break their laws, you have to deal with the consequences" (in this specific case, my head says).

    Yes, people make mistakes.

    Yes, some may not do it again, but a lot do.

    I think it is a "no win" situation. They let them go, and others do the exact same thing- legally they should let them go too. (Of course they could get rid of the death penalty, but that's a different issue). Where is the line?
    When they do it a second time? Third? Twentieth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I've been reading about them, by all accounts, not only are the clean, but the spend their time helping others to get off drugs, one is now a pastor and the other an artist, they run drug support groups and teach Art classes, raise money for charities etc.

    The things that strike me most about this case though, are the double standards Indonesia is displaying, they are far more lenient on their own people than foreigners who do the same crimes. That leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

    I think the death penalty is a breach of human rights, and I think that we have the right to ask for clemency, I don't agree with the view that it is their way so we must just let it go. That goes for any country. And just because I happen to be talking about this particular thing right now, doesn't mean I don't talk about other world issues.
    I agree! You say it so well

    But....have you seen this

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-1...bribes/6113786

    Surely if you are a country whom implements the death penalty you would want your judiciary to be above reproach??

    If their sentence was changed to life, I could perhaps be content with that. They seem to be doing good things in the jail they are in and are helping many.

  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerilee View Post
    I agree! You say it so well

    But....have you seen this

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-1...bribes/6113786

    Surely if you are a country whom implements the death penalty you would want your judiciary to be above reproach??

    If their sentence was changed to life, I could perhaps be content with that. They seem to be doing good things in the jail they are in and are helping many.
    Indonesian officials are well know for corruption, I think it would be naive to think it couldn't have been an issue in this, or any other case.

  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT75 View Post
    You know, I hate myself for this...
    ...but there is a voice in my head saying,
    "You go to a country with the death penalty, and break their laws, you have to deal with the consequences" (in this specific case, my head says).

    Yes, people make mistakes.

    Yes, some may not do it again, but a lot do.

    I think it is a "no win" situation. They let them go, and others do the exact same thing- legally they should let them go too. (Of course they could get rid of the death penalty, but that's a different issue). Where is the line?
    When they do it a second time? Third? Twentieth?
    But the options here aren't to give them the death penalty or let them go. I completely agree that releasing them from jail isn't an option in the big picture of things.

  13. #110
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    I'm not suggesting letting them go.

    The rest of the bali 9 are serving life sentences so I'd be thinking aligning their sentences with those. They actually seem to be doing a lot of good where they are..


 

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