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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Of course there is a line. Just because i believe "well, thats the punishment in that country" doesnt mean i agree with it, just that those are the rules and theres nothing we can do to change it besides avoid ending up in that position.
    I think I understand this post. Your looking at it from a factual viewpoint - which I do with most posts on BH and get flamed for. I think you are factually correct and normally I would like your post. It's just that for some reason the thought of someone ****ting themselves in the moments before being shot gets to me pretty bad and as a result my heart overrules my head (a rarity).

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  3. #92
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    Default Debate thread for discussing the death penalty and the Bali 9

    Quote Originally Posted by NoteToSelf View Post
    China has to be up there if not worse than Indonesia for human rights abuses, should we put sanctions on them too?
    The death penalty is only hitting the media because 'one of our own' is involved. People don't generally kick up a fuss unless a specific case has some connection to them.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    Yes, I agree.
    That better bloody not mean I've joined the bleeding heart club!

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  6. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    I think I understand this post. Your looking at it from a factual viewpoint - which I do with most posts on BH and get flamed for. I think you are factually correct and normally I would like your post. It's just that for some reason the thought of someone ****ting themselves in the moments before being shot gets to me pretty bad and as a result my heart overrules my head (a rarity).
    Yes, this exactly how i feel. It doesnt mean i care any less, or that i want women to get stoned for adultery etc etc. Im not a sinister evil woman! It just means i can see things from both points of veiw. In an ideal world i wouldnt want any culture to use corporal punishment, but unfortunately we dont live in that world and the cultures that practise it will never want to change. It is their normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heplusme View Post
    Yes, this exactly how i feel. It doesnt mean i care any less, or that i want women to get stoned for adultery etc etc. Im not a sinister evil woman! It just means i can see things from both points of veiw. In an ideal world i wouldnt want any culture to use corporal punishment, but unfortunately we dont live in that world and the cultures that practise it will never want to change. It is their normal.
    That's no excuse.

    Human rights for everyone.

    Yes, we should personally act, and our government should impose sanctions on all countries that violate human rights including those which commit atrocities and war crimes against the innocent. And yes that includes China. Someone has to speak for those who can not speak for themselves.

    America was mentioned. This is the government which dropped the A bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, securing its place in history among the worst of all atrocities committed in the history of mankind, IMHO. Perhaps not the best yardstick for us to measure ourselves by.
    Last edited by Butterfly39; 16-02-2015 at 08:00.

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  9. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    I find it odd that "bleeding hearts" is supposed to be a bad thing, if nothing at all, all people need empathy and compassion, almost all atrocities in history were caused because the people doing the terrible things had none.
    Yeah totally agree.

    For a society to evolve and move forward progressively you can't look at things devoid of emotion. If we did we'd still be burying people in the sand and stoning them.

    I find the "I look at things logically" argument a bit of a diversion and dismissive. Great, well we need multiple lenses to look at issues, problems etc..
    Last edited by babyla; 16-02-2015 at 08:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoteToSelf View Post
    China has to be up there if not worse than Indonesia for human rights abuses, should we put sanctions on them too?
    Yes, but I personally think that capitalism doesn't work at all. The only reason we have to be "chummy" with certain countries is because we want their money at our expense. We certainly should not under circumstances be selling our farming land to anyone, ever. And I don't think we should be trade partners with countries that commit atrocities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by babyla View Post
    Yeah totally agree.

    For a society to evolve and move forward progressively you can't look at things devoid of emotion. If we did we'd still be burying people in the sand and stoning them.

    I find the "I look at things logically" argument a bit of a diversion and dismissive. Great, well we need multiple lenses to look at issues, problems etc..
    Well i find the "i look at things emotionally" a bit wishful and nonsensical.

    If we placed sanctions on every country that we disagreed with we would have no trade. The government needs trade to make money. We need money for our citizens to claim welfare. We need welfare to stop people ending up on the streets and in turn committing crimes. I think its all good and well to be positive and wish for change, but history shows that it wont happen, certainly not in our lifetimes. If it was that easy, the war in Iraq and Afganistan would have made some difference and in turn the countries would be thriving.

    We are lucky we were born into an advanced society, but we cant forget that others arnt. If you go in guns blazing trying to change their ways, which they have developed over thousands of years, we start a war. Who has to be in the front line of that war? Our defence force personell (who all have mothers, brothers and sons).

    So excuse me if i look at things logically. I think the bigger picture is important and in no way is it dismissive, it is just looking deeper into the issue.

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    This has been an interesting thread. I must admit that I haven't followed much of this story in the news so there are definitely details I am missing. Maybe not knowing many details makes me less emotionally involved. My general stance is always anti death penalty (in all situations). However, I tend to think of that more in terms of what I want for our country rather than how other countries choose to punish their criminals. I also think it's important for Australia to be vocal about human rights - however, it frustrates me a little that all of a sudden this is being made into a huge issue here when the death penalty is implemented all over the world frequently. I understand why it's being spoken about and I suppose that any discussion of this nature is important, but I feel that this passion and discussion could be better served trying to make more widespread changes rather than clemency for two specific individuals. I wonder if I might feel differently if I had done more reading about this specific case......

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  16. #100
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    PlayNice is offline Saving the world one chocolate at a time
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    I am a recovering drug addict. I have done heroin, although I was not addicted to it. When I was 18 both my best friends were heroin addicts.

    Drug addiction is a complex, multi-factorial thing and I sit on the side of compassion, personally, with anyone who is facing it, is in recovery from it or loves someone who is in the grips of it.

    Having said that, I think that we have to reserve those heavy pressure against another country for when there is cause to believe that people were either innocent or that there was extenuating circumstances involved. In this situation it does not appear to be the case.

    Would I vote in favour of capital punishment here? No, I wouldn't. I think in many (probably most) situations crime results from an unfavourable mix of mental illness, lack of education and social supports.

    But do I think its our government's job to apply heavy pressure to another country to abstain from the application of its federal law because our citizens went into their country and committed mass drug trafficking? No, I don't think this is the time for that.

    Like I said, I think you have to leave some international diplomacy cards on the table for when we have cause to believe that someone who was innocent has been found guilty.

    Do I think the situation is very sad? Yes.
    Do I think this situation is complex? Yes.

    In full disclosure I admit to not feeling hugely sympathetic to these men. I am actually surprised to be on the "accept the situation" side of this argument as I typically sit with the bleeding heart, left wingers on social issues. I do believe there is a time and a place for international intervention, I just don't think this is that time.

    And although its been dismissed as simplistic as an argument, I do find it relevant that the people involved were aware of the risks when they took them.

    I think of it as akin to climbing into a lions cage for financial gain. You know you might get mauled to death but if you decide to take the risk its hardly the lions fault.

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