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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Yet. Let's revisit the situation in 5 years time.
    You're quite cynical eh?

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  3. #172
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    @HopefulK I get what you are saying. And if it was an older child who was somewhat capable of fending for themselves, or self-settling, then I would agree that it may not be viewed as a form of abuse.

    However, for such a young child, neglect and abuse is seen as very very similar. The case is investigated the same, and the same procedures are put in place.

    Also, from a strictly legal sense (your words) it does fall under the same banner. From a prosecuting sense, it could be argued as "just" neglect.
    Getting from "the law is X" to "you will be prosecuted for Y" are different things.

    It's a very very confusing subject. But, in a legally enforceable manner, neglect is a form of abuse. I wouldn't say it is abuse (from personal experience working on cases), but it is a part of the whole.

    What has to be remembered is that social services will NOT look at anything like this from the side of the adult. They will look at it from the side of the child. Even a single minute is a hugely long time for a child younger than 2 (especially one without communication skills). Adults have completely different time concepts to children. Wait is a foreign concept to them.
    So social services can only view the child's side, as they are their advocate.

    ETA: I'm sorry if you felt I was saying your opinion didn't matter. That wasn't what I meant at all.
    From a purely legal stand (and when someone says the law says X there really is no arguing with it via viewpoints, if that is in fact the law) opinions don't matter.
    If my post came across as me saying that your opinion didn't matter, that was probably because, to me, it felt like you were saying "well the law is wrong and who cares" by saying "I don't think it is neglect" as a response to "that's the law"...
    Ah...the joys of text as a form of communication.
    Last edited by DT75; 07-02-2015 at 17:15.

  4. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT75 View Post
    @HopefulK I get what you are saying. And if it was an older child who was somewhat capable of fending for themselves, or self-settling, then I would agree that it may not be viewed as a form of abuse.

    However, for such a young child, neglect and abuse is seen as very very similar. The case is investigated the same, and the same procedures are put in place.

    Also, from a strictly legal sense (your words) it does fall under the same banner. From a prosecuting sense, it could be argued as "just" neglect.
    Getting from "the law is X" to "you will be prosecuted for Y" are different things.

    It's a very very confusing subject. But, in a legally enforceable manner, neglect is a form of abuse. I wouldn't say it is abuse (from personal experience working on cases), but it is a part of the whole.

    What has to be remembered is that social services will NOT look at anything like this from the side of the adult. They will look at it from the side of the child. Even a single minute is a hugely long time for a child younger than 2 (especially one without communication skills). Adults have completely different time concepts to children. Wait is a foreign concept to them.
    So social services can only view the child's side, as they are their advocate.

    ETA: I'm sorry if you felt I was saying your opinion didn't matter. That wasn't what I meant at all.
    From a purely legal stand (and when someone says the law says X there really is no arguing with it via viewpoints, if that is in fact the law) opinions don't matter.
    If my post came across as me saying that your opinion didn't matter, that was probably because, to me, it felt like you were saying "well the law is wrong and who cares" by saying "I don't think it is neglect" as a response to "that's the law"...
    Ah...the joys of text as a form of communication.
    Thanks, and I didn't specifically mean you but I appreciate your comments. I agree and see what you mean, maybe I didn't word it very well but what I was trying to say that while I understand that neglect (all parts of the spectrum) can equal abuse, it can't be assumed and it's a very complex area. I'm also coming at it from some personal experience with PND. While I never left my child alone at home, there were other things I did in the midst of that horrible grey brain-fog that comes with depression, things I'm not proud of and things which are completely out of character for me , such as leaving my baby to scream and scream while I retreated downstairs and turned up the radio so I didn't go mad... things I'm sure plenty of people would judge me for but I learned from them and got the help I needed.

    I guess it felt like some people were pretty quick to cry "abuse"... I know how hard it is to ask for help at a time when you're feeling like you've lost control, especially if you're afraid of being judged. I would hate for someone here who was struggling to read those things and be afraid to reach out.

  5. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post
    You're quite cynical eh?
    Cynical... Realistic... Meh... Yes.

  6. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Cynical... Realistic... Meh... Yes.
    And that's precisely why PND is still stigmatised in our society.

  7. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post
    Thanks, and I didn't specifically mean you but I appreciate your comments. I agree and see what you mean, maybe I didn't word it very well but what I was trying to say that while I understand that neglect (all parts of the spectrum) can equal abuse, it can't be assumed and it's a very complex area. I'm also coming at it from some personal experience with PND. While I never left my child alone at home, there were other things I did in the midst of that horrible grey brain-fog that comes with depression, things I'm not proud of and things which are completely out of character for me , such as leaving my baby to scream and scream while I retreated downstairs and turned up the radio so I didn't go mad... things I'm sure plenty of people would judge me for but I learned from them and got the help I needed.

    I guess it felt like some people were pretty quick to cry "abuse"... I know how hard it is to ask for help at a time when you're feeling like you've lost control, especially if you're afraid of being judged. I would hate for someone here who was struggling to read those things and be afraid to reach out.
    I completely understand that parents/carers need breaks too, and that this can happen at a time (or place) that most would judge. However, I am really really not talking about people who stay within the property. By all means, go as far as you need to but stay on the property (unless someone else is there).
    It is too dangerous (not just for the child, but for the adult- in a legal sense) to do otherwise.

    Of course, everyone makes mistakes. This is why I am very careful with using the word 'abuse'. Even in what seems a clear-cut case, there is always more to it.

    My point was to stress that this was neglect. Which, while serious, has room for judgement errors. I wouldn't call the OP's friend neglectful, but I would say it was a case of neglect.

    It is hard to ask for advice for almost everything. But when it comes to kids and mental health, there is such a backlash that can happen, that I am not surprised people are afraid to reach out.

    I feel the best thing that came out of this scenario, was that the OP knew others were on the same page, and so she felt supported (I am assuming here OP) in talking to her friend. Who, hopefully, will be more open to asking for help if needed. Or, at least, has realised that what she did was very serious- which she may well have known anyway and it didn't just click IYKWIM?

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  9. #177
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    Default Leaving sleeping baby at home..alone?!

    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post
    And that's precisely why PND is still stigmatised in our society.
    Pardon my ignorance... How do you know the mum in question had PND? And if she did have PND how do you know that that would be her first and only time she would put her child at risk?

  10. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Pardon my ignorance... How do you know the mum in question had PND? And if she did have PND how do you know that that would be her first and only time she would put her child at risk?
    How do you know she doesn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HopefulK View Post
    How do you know she doesn't?
    Whether she does or doesn't is irrelevant. Whether her child is at risk is the most important factor.

  12. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Whether she does or doesn't is irrelevant. Whether her child is at risk is the most important factor.
    I agree in part, yes the child's safety is paramount, it's the most important factor but not the ONLY factor. It is also important that mothers feel supported to put their hands up and admit they're struggling first, before things get to that point (in the case that PND is an issue), which is the point I'm trying to make here. Rather than shaming someone for a really stupid mistake it would be more productive to understand why it happened, and how to stop it from happening again.

    If the OP had marched over to her friends house and started accusing her of abuse and threatening to report her, I'm sure the outcome would have been a lot different, and not necessarily to the benefit of the child either.


 

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