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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    So's whose rights trump whose? Does the unborn baby have rights over the women or does the woman get to retain her bodily autonomy? You can't have it both ways if you start giving rights to an unborn baby.
    Well actually you can. Laws can be crafted pretty darn specifically, they don't need to be the strart of a slippery slope. People opposing this law due to the slippery slope factor are just scaremongering.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Well actually you can. Laws can be crafted pretty darn specifically, they don't need to be the strart of a slippery slope. People opposing this law due to the slippery slope factor are just scaremongering.
    Not really. Once you give a foetus more rights than the woman carrying it, you set a precedent.
    Have a look at how this sort of thing has gone down in the USA- not scaremongering- a very real fear based on what has already happened in some places there.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Not really. Once you give a foetus more rights than the woman carrying it, you set a precedent.
    Have a look at how this sort of thing has gone down in the USA- not scaremongering- a very real fear based on what has already happened in some places there.
    The dynamics in the US are quite different: a lot of religious nuts over there , no doubt the legislation that was initially passed was a bit shaky to begin with.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    The dynamics in the US are quite different: a lot of religious nuts over there , no doubt the legislation that was initially passed was a bit shaky to begin with.
    Sure. But a precedent is a precedent. If you make it illegal to drink alcohol on the grounds that it may hurt the foetus, what else is affected? Some women must take medications during pregnancy that may not be 100% proven safe, some may require a surgical procedure which is not 100% safe (I know one person who had her appendix out while preg), some women choose to terminate. You can't allow one form of "harm" while outlawing another.

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  6. #55
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    Besides, criminalising someone's substance abuse has not been shown to be a successful cure anywhere in the world. While some have the odd tipple during pregnancy, I think it's fair to say most people drinking to excess are doing so because they have a problem, not because they have no idea you shouldn't. There might be a small percentage in that category, so why not an advertising campaign to target them, and HELP as opposed to prosecution, for the rest? Drinking during pregnancy is dangerous, we know that. The point should be about helping these women to stop, not waiting until the damage is done and punishing them.

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  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    So's whose rights trump whose? Does the unborn baby have rights over the women or does the woman get to retain her bodily autonomy? You can't have it both ways if you start giving rights to an unborn baby.



    Poor sperm quality can increase the chances of miscarriage and according to this article


    My point was that society is so very keen on controlling the behaviours of women yet less keen on controlling the behaviours of men. The example I was using was that there is a voluntary standard by the Australian wine industry as part of a responsible winery initiative to include the 'don't drink when pregnant' symbol on wine labels. There are 9 actions as part of this initiative, none of which mention anything about similar symbols on wine labels to discourage drinking and driving, binge drinking, etc.
    Yes alcohol smoking drugs does effect sperm and egg quality
    but we are talking about a baby already made being harmed

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    If you let women get away with being blotto while pregnant... If you have a legal system that champions the rights of mothers to do whatever they want regardless of their ability to successfully undertake rehab/the damage to their kids.... This is what you end up with.

    Should the women in this case be let off with just rehab too? Or is it just unborn babies who lives aren't worth protecting?
    Last edited by VicPark; 08-11-2014 at 07:37.

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    A 16 year old girl with FAS in England was awarded compensation last year because of her mother drinking during pregnancy.


    Girl harmed by drink in womb wins payout

    A TEENAGER has been awarded £500,000 in criminal injuries compensation for severe brain damage she sustained in the womb as a result of her mother drinking alcohol.


    The 16-year-old, called Molly and from the northwest of England, was considered a victim of a crime because her mother persisted in drinking heavily despite warnings from health workers and police about the risks to her unborn child.


    Molly was four when she was diagnosed with foetal alcohol syndrome (FAS). Molly, 16, is unable to dress herself and needs help to eat.


    News of the payout, made by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority (CICA) last September, comes ahead of a test case at the Court of Appeal later this year.



    http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1412028.ece


    They changed the rules on compensation in 2012, but the council is arguing that the application for the current case was lodged before the rules changed.

    Apparently the council have 80 similar cases ready to go if this current appeal is successful:

    In a case that could have far-ranging implications for expectant mothers, the Court of Appeal was yesterday asked to rule that irresponsible drinking in pregnancy should be unlawful.

    There are understood to be around 80 similar actions ready to be launched if the case is successful.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...expecting.html

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    My concern with this is it will lead to an increase in unnecessary abortions. If a woman drank heavily early in her pregnancy because she didn't know she was pregnant, and before the umbilical cord was developed so the baby is likely to be fine, but fears she'll go to jail may mean she'll abort. I see this as an obvious outcome and ironic given so many behind laws like these are also anti abortion.

    And what about parents who smoke around their kids and cause serious bronchial harm

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  13. #60
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    AnYhow my last piece on the subject and I'm done as I didn't relize people take it as a loss of female autonomy or how can we turn this into woman vs man laws discussion.
    This law in my opinion will not be passed here, what are they going to do door nock and breath alias ppl?
    did ppl get offended when they made it zero alcohol for L and P platers. It was proven they are at risk of endangering lives, alcohol (smoking and drugs) endangers another life while your pregnant - the fetus.
    lets spend the money on helping these people not on the money it takes to pass these laws. I have lots of family and friends that smoke and drink while pregnant id say about 20 at the moment when I've asked them about it they have responded laughing none have said 'I have problem' or given the impression,
    last week I moved away from a relative as I was sitting next to her and she started smoking thought that's a bit rude she must not be able to tell I am preg. So sat opposite to her and noticed she was pregnant I politely asked her aren't you pregnant she laughed yea I don't care it keeps my weight down and I don't wana huge thing coming outta me either. So yes some people do have a problem' but some people laugh about it.

    lastly if these babies are born with the physical and mental disabilities I hope the parent step up in caring for the child and not then putting them up for adoption because of something they created. We see this too

    and if you find my piece offensive then I think you would of found anything saying women shouldn't be doing this offensive.

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