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  1. #41
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    What the article describe is not drinking it's binge drinking.

    Yes very slippery slope. I'd be very surprise to see such laws starting in Europe.

    It won't happen.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    They still have freedom to do things such as to shopping and have a coffee. Imagine the uproar if a man assaulted his wife, disabling her, then didn't get jail time (but hey he has to live with the guilt and look after his wife for the rest if his life). Jail is about rehab, punishment, deterring and protecting the public. CounsellIng alone doesn't address all aspects. If the drunkard mum isn't responsive to treatment then well protect her current and future kids by putting her in jail. I'm not averse to putting so one in jail just for punishment either. Might actually force them to wake up/get clean/think twice about reoffending. The softly Approach doesn't take us work either
    Sorry VP I'm drinking so like a debate :-) but are you seriously suggesting that going out for a coffee and going shopping is going to make someone with a sh!tty, guiltridden, regretful life all ok?

    There would be uproar in your example, you're right, because assaulting someone is illegal. There are no grey areas there. It's not legal for *most* people to assault others and illegal for some. But there are grey areas here - as people have said, some women don't know they're pregnant for a long time, and it can only take one instance of drinking for FAS to occur, so we're not just talking filthy drunkards living off 'our' tax money here. It could, and does, happen to all sorts of people.

    Look, I agree with you to an extent. I didn't touch a drop of alcohol when I was pregnant, nor breast feeding. I've been trying to think about how I would feel if a pregnant woman got behind the wheel of a car when she was drunk, crashed, and her unborn child died as a result. I mean, that's a worse crime than drink driving, right? So I'm not waving the flag for reckless behaviour. I just think that it's not so black and white.

    May have rambled. May have consumed vodka.

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  4. #43
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    Prison time is the solution in very little cases. I think it makes most matter worse. But especially in these situation what would it achieve?

    Prevention and support is key.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    And so is harming a baby.



    Are you suggesting a women should forgo her bodily autonomy as soon as she is pregnant? If so you've just reduced women to be nothing more than vessels for growing babies. It's indicative of a wider social problem (ie patriarchy) that the collective thought is women are so stupid, careless, selfish etc that society needs to govern their behaviour either by legislation or social mores.

    Alcohol consumption has also been known to affect sperm quality, I say we lock up men of fertile age who drink!

    I am in no way advocating pregnant women go out on the turps every other night and deliver a lifetime of FAS to an innocent baby. However, in this instance (similar to abortion) you must pick the least worst choice.

    Some perspective, the FAS rate in Australia is 0.006%. That means 99.994% of women provided a sufficiently healthy womb for their baby.

    Why the frikk do some wine bottles carry labels like the one below yet there are no labels warning drinkers not to drink and drive (predominantly males who are apprehended). Why is society so quick to tell women how to behave yet don't apply the same codes of conduct to men?!

    Attachment 62943
    No I am not suggesting pregnant women should lose control over their own bodies. What I am saying is that the unborn surely has a right to to be protected from being made to have foetal alcohol syndrome. If a woman knows she is pregnant but choose to drink heaps and smoke, then she is subjecting her future child to serious health problems. She is deliberately harming a baby, which, as you said, is illegal.

    Regarding alcohol affecting sperm quality, if alcohol-affected sperm actually has the potential to harm another person, then I am all for preventing fertile men from drinking.

    Do you want to do something about drink-driving? That's good. I will fully support you in that. But what does that have to do with whether or not the legal action taken against the woman in the article is justified?

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  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    No I am not suggesting pregnant women should lose control over their own bodies. What I am saying is that the unborn surely has a right to to be protected from being made to have foetal alcohol syndrome. If a woman knows she is pregnant but choose to drink heaps and smoke, then she is subjecting her future child to serious health problems. She is deliberately harming a baby, which, as you said, is illegal.
    So's whose rights trump whose? Does the unborn baby have rights over the women or does the woman get to retain her bodily autonomy? You can't have it both ways if you start giving rights to an unborn baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Regarding alcohol affecting sperm quality, if alcohol-affected sperm actually has the potential to harm another person, then I am all for preventing fertile men from drinking.
    Poor sperm quality can increase the chances of miscarriage and according to this article
    Birth defects, childhood cancer, and miscarriages have all been linked to the health of a father's sperm.
    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Do you want to do something about drink-driving? That's good. I will fully support you in that. But what does that have to do with whether or not the legal action taken against the woman in the article is justified?
    My point was that society is so very keen on controlling the behaviours of women yet less keen on controlling the behaviours of men. The example I was using was that there is a voluntary standard by the Australian wine industry as part of a responsible winery initiative to include the 'don't drink when pregnant' symbol on wine labels. There are 9 actions as part of this initiative, none of which mention anything about similar symbols on wine labels to discourage drinking and driving, binge drinking, etc.

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  9. #46
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    @nasalhaironfire why are bringing smoking into the issue? I don't think it has anything to do with FSA.

    Where do you draw the line? What about women eating a really poor diet during pregnancy (high fat/calories)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    So's whose rights trump whose? Does the unborn baby have rights over the women or does the woman get to retain her bodily autonomy? You can't have it both ways if you start giving rights to an unborn baby.
    Actually, I believe it is illegal for a foetus to be deliberately killed if that foetus is actually viable - that is, is capable of being born alive. That is different from aborting a foetus that is in the first trimester of pregnancy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExcuseMyFrench View Post
    @nasalhaironfire why are bringing smoking into the issue? I don't think it has anything to do with FSA.

    Where do you draw the line? What about women eating a really poor diet during pregnancy (high fat/calories)?
    Yeah smoking while pregnant does not cause foetal alcohol syndrome, but everyone knows it has severe health consequences for the unborn child. I think it's a parallel issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    Sorry VP I'm drinking so like a debate :-) but are you seriously suggesting that going out for a coffee and going shopping is going to make someone with a sh!tty, guiltridden, regretful life all ok?
    No....! Just meant that someone who knowingly does something to cause her baby severe harm (getting blotto while preggers) deserves to have some freedoms (such as having coffee at a cafe) taken off her for at least a little while.

    - hope you enjoyed your drinkie poos and don't feel the after effects today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExcuseMyFrench View Post
    Prison time is the solution in very little cases. I think it makes most matter worse. But especially in these situation what would it achieve?

    Prevention and support is key.
    This is assuming all women are good at heart and want to accept support/help and not drink... Which is not the case.

    Prison isn't just about fixng the problems with the offender. It's about punishment, deterring and protecting the public.


 

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