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  1. #31
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    Just referring back to the case:

    I don't think the appeal should succeed - it would set a dangerous precedent, particularly due to the wording of the current case ie. that pregnant women are potentially committing 'criminal violence' by ingesting 'noxious substances'.
    Does 'noxious substances' include soft cheeses? Tobacco? Antidepressant medication? Medication for a medical abortion such as RU486?

    But I also believe the girl in the case should get compensation. I don't think she will but I'm wondering if she has any other avenues to obtain compensation?

    If there were two babies and both end up with lifelong health issues due to their mother taking a 'noxious substance', the only difference being one was affected in utero and the other after their birth through breastfeeding (similar to this case *trigger*). Under current law only one is classified as being the victim of a crime committed against them and is entitled to receive compensation.

    I just feel like there should be a way for children affected to receive support and compensation to help with their life-long medical care (and I'm thinking more so in countries without universal health care such as the USA) without imposing a law such as this on pregnant women.

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  3. #32
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    These issues make me really angry.

    Making social issues like these a crime is incredibly lazy law making. Rather than actually tackle the problem make it a problem for the police, the courts and the prisons.

    What a joke.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonja View Post
    These issues make me really angry.

    Making social issues like these a crime is incredibly lazy law making. Rather than actually tackle the problem make it a problem for the police, the courts and the prisons.

    What a joke.
    By all means have rehab etc etc... But at the same time you can't let people who severely screw up another human being get off Scott free. The joke happens when kids grow up with severe physical and mental health issues and the 'mothers' behind it all get off without ever really being called out.

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    Ok so I've just read the article properly. They aren't making it a crime at all.

    VicPark your intentions are admirable but FAS isn't detected until after birth (a few years later in fact).

    Wouldn't it be far better use of resources to prevent this occurring in the first place? The reality is many symptoms of FAS can be symptoms of other problems as well.

  8. #35
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    But to be honest I don't think a life of caring for a child with severe impairment is really getting off scott free is it? Let alone the guilt associated with that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    I also don't think it's as simple as dismissing a woman that does this as a 'horrible person'. I guess I just favour a preventative approach to a punitive one in most situations.
    Preventative approach is fine and to be honest plays an important part in social justice systems... However it can not be used as a total substitute for incarceration (which is about protecting the public and good old fashioned punishment). Imagine the uproar if people were suggesting rapists got off with counsellIng/rehab (... But the poor thing only raped the woman because he was an alcoholic! ... The man only punched his wife because he was stressed and was on drugs! ). Why should pregnant mums get a free pass to rehab while others go through the courts on their way to jail?

  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by VicPark View Post
    Preventative approach is fine and to be honest plays an important part in social justice systems... However it can not be used as a total substitute for incarceration (which is about protecting the public and good old fashioned punishment). Imagine the uproar if people were suggesting rapists got off with counsellIng/rehab (... But the poor thing only raped the woman because he was an alcoholic! ... The man only punched his wife because he was stressed and was on drugs! ). Why should pregnant mums get a free pass to rehab while others go through the courts on their way to jail?
    Defense lawyers try to make excuses like that all the time, along with the good old not guilty because they were impaired at the time and can't remember. I agree with you, that stuff makes my blood boil. And there is a definite purpose for incarceration, that's true.

    But do you think the public need to be protected in a case like this? What from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    But to be honest I don't think a life of caring for a child with severe impairment is really getting off scott free is it? Let alone the guilt associated with that?
    They still have freedom to do things such as to shopping and have a coffee. Imagine the uproar if a man assaulted his wife, disabling her, then didn't get jail time (but hey he has to live with the guilt and look after his wife for the rest if his life). Jail is about rehab, punishment, deterring and protecting the public. CounsellIng alone doesn't address all aspects. If the drunkard mum isn't responsive to treatment then well protect her current and future kids by putting her in jail. I'm not averse to putting so one in jail just for punishment either. Might actually force them to wake up/get clean/think twice about reoffending. The softly Approach doesn't take us work either

  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Assault and drink-driving are already illegal.
    And so is harming a baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by nasalhaironfire View Post
    Regarding women's right to bodily autonomy, what about the unborn child's right to bodily autonomy?c
    Are you suggesting a women should forgo her bodily autonomy as soon as she is pregnant? If so you've just reduced women to be nothing more than vessels for growing babies. It's indicative of a wider social problem (ie patriarchy) that the collective thought is women are so stupid, careless, selfish etc that society needs to govern their behaviour either by legislation or social mores.

    Alcohol consumption has also been known to affect sperm quality, I say we lock up men of fertile age who drink!

    I am in no way advocating pregnant women go out on the turps every other night and deliver a lifetime of FAS to an innocent baby. However, in this instance (similar to abortion) you must pick the least worst choice.

    Some perspective, the FAS rate in Australia is 0.006%. That means 99.994% of women provided a sufficiently healthy womb for their baby.

    Why the frikk do some wine bottles carry labels like the one below yet there are no labels warning drinkers not to drink and drive (predominantly males who are apprehended). Why is society so quick to tell women how to behave yet don't apply the same codes of conduct to men?!

    1509991_698396936922823_1456389947702284876_n.jpg

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  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvs View Post
    Defense lawyers try to make excuses like that all the time, along with the good old not guilty because they were impaired at the time and can't remember. I agree with you, that stuff makes my blood boil. And there is a definite purpose for incarceration, that's true.

    But do you think the public need to be protected in a case like this? What from?
    If a mum is getting blotto when pregnant then her future potential kids need to be protected from being born. And since rehab isn't always successful and compulsory sterilisation isn't likely to be supported, then I think jail time (where access to peni$ is limited), for giving a child a severe handicap is fair.


 

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