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  1. #201
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    I'm not speaking to you specifically, I'm saying if people who object to halal certification have a problem with it in part because they believe the money earned potentially supports the costs of Mosques being built, there are many Mosques built without any money from AFIC etc.

    I'm not defensive, what you posted says nowhere that AFIC uses money earned from Halal certification for building Mosques; it says they provide leadership and support. There's no evidence to say that money from Halal certification is used for building Mosques or supporting terrorism yet people continue to use these arguments against certification and it's baseless.

    As for the issue of opponents avoiding Halal products, that conversation has gone in circles in this thread, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

  2. #202
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    So a statement UNDER the heading "halal accreditation" explaining where support goes (that'd be financial support) means what?
    -
    "Muslims Australia provides leadership in various programs including education, publications, social work, charity, provision of Imams and their salaries as well as assistance in Da’wah work, building of Mosques and other infra-structure for the member societies at the grassroots level."

    Look - there's 'charity' in there too -- that's obviously a good thing!

    I don't think it is absurd to suggest that profits made from Halal accreditation assist the Islamic community.
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 30-10-2014 at 10:46.

  3. #203
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    Off course it's not absurd to think AFIC provides assistant to the community but since there is no factual information to say how much they actually earn from certification I think people grossly inflate it in their minds. We don't sit back and wait for all the piles of money to flow in from certification so we can build infrastructure, we work hard to fundraise it ourselves.

    Anyway I'm getting too personally involved in this thread again so I'll take a break.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama Mirabelle View Post
    ...but since there is no factual information to say how much they actually earn from certification I think people grossly inflate it in their minds.
    I figured this may be the case, so I tried to have a look at the annual reports which are available on the Muslims Australia website. I think the site's a bit buggy though as I was unable to access them (tried a couple of different browsers).

    Not sure if anyone else is able to access them?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky1 View Post
    I figured this may be the case, so I tried to have a look at the annual reports which are available on the Muslims Australia website. I think the site's a bit buggy though as I was unable to access them (tried a couple of different browsers).

    Not sure if anyone else is able to access them?
    Yeh - I tried to look too..I don't think it is a case of the website being buggy, I just don't think there is any info under that tab.

    Plenty of businesses like to keep their financial info (losses and gains) quite private. I'm not sure of the 'rules' applying to Islamic banking in Australia either - obviously another valid concern for people.

  6. #206
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    I found this though:



    Schedule of Fees & Charges

    The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc (AFIC) is the national organisation levying only those charges commensurate with its costs pertaining to Halal services.
    1.Base accreditation charge:

    The charges may vary depending upon the type of business establishment as well as from first site.

    (Each additional site: To be advised after assessment of the site, products and production but generally would be at discounted rate in case of similar nature).



    Assessment of appropriate charges:
    •Application materials, phone, fax, email, postage, processing and renewal
    •Type of business: High risk, medium risk or low risk (Nature of food products & possibility & frequency of occurrence of cross contamination from Halal Point of view)
    •Assessment involve:
    1.Nature & type of products: Halal &/or Non-Halal, nutritional etc
    2.Number of products
    3.Number of production lines to produce Halal
    4.Extent of production facilities: equipments & machinery
    5.Frequency of spot inspection at AFICs cost in some cases
    6.Frequency of support needed by the company
    7.Help developing Halal program to cater the need for individual company
    8.Floor capacity of the premises (from reception of raw materials to finished products & distribution to consumers/clients)



    Each product assessment: $30.00 for 1-3 ingredients

    $40.00 for 4-6 ingredients

    $50.00 for 7-10 or more



    2. Site inspection charge: – $100.00 (upto 2 hours)

    - $150.00 (2-4 hours)

    - $200.00 (over 4 hours)

    Note: Inspection required per site: at least once a year or depending upon the nature of products & processes: High risk, low risk or medium risk area.

    Duties: Assessing Halal Compliance, Auditing of records, Quality

    Assurance, Good Manufacturing Practices, Manufacturing

    Facilities, Hygiene & Health (OH&S)



    3. Associated Expenses:

    Travelling:
    •Travelling by air, hire car, taxi: charged at cost
    •Travel by car from AFIC office to your site: 0.60c per km
    •Travel time may be charged for travel outside metropolitan area



    Note: If some companies are due for inspection & are in close proximity, then the cost could be minimised by visiting them (2-3 sites per week) in sequence at the same time during the week and thus share the cost of travelling amongst the sites or companies involved.



    Accommodation, living expenses etc:
    •on invoice – may be charged at allowance rates as per recommendation of Australian Taxation Office
    • Ongoing assessment to maintain Halal Status: Spot inspection at both Accredited company & AFIC’s cost (sharing 50% each) in most cases unless otherwise agreed upon depending upon the type of products to be processed or manufactured and following distribution network.
    • Amendment: up to 3 amendments (or max 3 products with reasonable number of ingredients) per year at no extra cost.

    Each additional product: $30.00 for 1-3 ingredients

    $40.00 for 4-6 ingredients

    $50.00 for 7-10 ingredients


    1.Supply of AFIC’s Halal Logo (bromide) to the accredited company’s

    Label at minimum or no cost.


    1.AFIC is also committed to provide: at No extra cost
    •All technical information through telephone inquiry, email, fax, photocopy & distribution, circular with regard to ongoing Halal status of the product as well as ingredients, on behalf of the accredited company, on a daily basis
    •Nutritional information
    •Help maintain level of confidence of consumers about the Accredited company and its range of Halal Products



    Additional Services:
    1.Promotion & Advertisement of company whenever at minimum cost through:
    •News letter
    •Halal guide or directory
    •Community media: radio talk, sending or forwarding information on behalf of the relevant company to various religious organisation.
    •News bulletin
    •News paper: The Australian Muslim News (monthly publication)
    •Seminars & conferences: local & international
    •Community gathering

    References Cited:
    •Quality Assurance Services (QAS)
    •NCS International Pty Limited
    http://muslimsaustralia.com.au/halal-accreditation-2/
    Last edited by FiveInTheBed; 30-10-2014 at 11:42.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mama Mirabelle View Post
    I don't so I can't say for sure but what I do know for absolute sure is that the Mosque and religious school in our area was paid for solely by contributions from the Muslim community as well as us holding many fundraising events throughout the year in order to raise money. I know 3 other mosques in our area that were built the same way, many of them took years to be built because that's how long it took to raise the money.
    Islamic schools will also receive government funding. A school's outgoings may include rent to landowners which in some instances is the the AFIC which would then use that money to further its cause. I'm not suggesting anything underhanded by this, just presenting information that I have learnt.

    Quote Originally Posted by sky1 View Post
    This is interesting.

    I know some Sikh's are vegetarian but for those who aren't, I guess they may be limited with fast food (KFC, Nandos etc) and meat such as chicken. From what I've read, the issue for Sikh's isn't so much with the slaughter process, but with there being a religious ritual as part of the slaughter process.

    I think a PP said that nearly all chicken in Australia is Halal (meaning a prayer is said at the start of the day etc)?

    I don't have a problem with Halal meat, but can understand how it might be frustrating for Sikh's if they have no alternative options and have to go without (as in the case of the UK school lunches).
    Many Sikh's are vegetarian but there are some that are not. I read up and watched some video's yesterday about this. Apparently Sikh's believe strongly against animal cruelty and require that for an animal to be slaughtered for consumption it should be killed instantly by 1 blow, which would thus rule out halal and kosher meat.

    ***

    I actually went to the Boycott Halal in Australia FB page (and gave myself a good scrub down afterwards) to ask the reasons for their boycott. Summary as follows:

    - There are many reasons for the boycott from wanting to freely practice our own believes for none at all to some religions that have a clause that says that cannot eat halal food.

    - The AFIC is not the only certifying body in Australia. (There are others but I can't get to the bit on their page that lists all the organisations.)

    - Animal cruelty issue - "the CSIRO has published a study that states that the the levels of stress hormones in ritually killed animals is extremely high and the stress hormone actually affect the meat to such an extent that the meat is tougher because of it" (no reference provided)

    - Imposing of one religion upon all others is an abuse of power by the government and food is a big part of people's lives and it upsets many groups who wish to exercise their own rites over their food and the government should be held for that.

    - Consumers are forced to pay religious fees when buying products. The fees can be $25,000, to $27,000 a month in abattoirs and it is easy to see why our food costs are rising especially meat. (no reference provided)

    - Investigations here in Australia and the US have found that money paid to Islamic groups have found its way to terrorist groups. (no reference provided)

    - One link provided of a mullah talking about conquering the world through halal certification. [I was directed to the Larry Pickering page for the link and needed a decontamination scrub afterwards, BLEGHHHH!] The Australian governments bending over backwards to supporting the halal certification to increase the meat export trade.

    - We have no problems with Muslims eating halal certified goods but if they want them they should pay for them and not people who have no need for them. Kosher food does not cost us money and the logo is clearly marked. (There are many different labels for halal certification.) [I believe Kosher meat can only be sourced in specialist butchers/stores.]

    - There has been pressure put on businesses to take on halal certification and I have had owners asking me questions as they are quite out of their depths and wondering what can be done and what it is all about. I have heard of threats made of business ruin which is appalling if true. I hope that we can eventually have a choice about what we buy based on truth and we are not held to ransom by a religion and government.


    ***

    And finally, I found this recent article whilst googling around:
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/.../halal/5843904

    Kirralie Smith is the founder of Halal Choices and does not support Halal labelling. Ms Smith and other anti-Halal activists claim certification fees are being directed to mosques which aim to impose Sharia law in Australia. She says her objections are not about racism, however.'There are companies wanting to make a lot of money out of it,' says Ms Smith.
    'A lot of these companies are just paying the certification because they don't want the hassle.'

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  9. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by meredithgrey View Post
    And so they should. Catholic and other christian schools all receive funding, so why shouldn't Islamic schools?
    I never suggested they shouldn't. (Actually in my perfect world there would only be secular schools but that is another thread!) I was just responding to a PP that said that the local Islamic school was entirely paid for by the Muslim community. To be crystal clear, I'm not suggesting that particular school wasn't (who am I to know the details). The fact is that governments provide financial support to religious schools - and some of that money will very likely go back to the respective religious authorities that manages some aspect of the school.

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    Okay - this 'movement' - the boycott halal movement, is quite big in teh UK, bigger than Australia, there is so much info out there in regards to to the animal cruelty surrounding halal slaughter... so I just came across a video that shows cows and goats and sheep still attempted to move, moo and breathe with their throats cut...disgusting, so very disgusting Thankyou RSPCA that make sure animals are stunned prior to slaughter here in Australia!!
    Before I vomit it is time to stop researching this for today, and get back out into that hot weather to tend to my garden.

  12. #210
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    Sorry I should've been clear, by Islamic school I meant the Madressah run jointly with the Mosque which many Muslim kids attend every afternoon which teaches them how to read the Quran and pray etc, like Sunday school at Church. I didn't mean the official schools that teach the Australian curriculum.

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