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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon2be4 View Post
    Another big thing that gets me is why does the formula tin need to state in BOLD: breastfeeding is best for your baby. What happens to: a well fed happy baby and mother who is coping with the biggest change in her life is the best thing for your baby.
    This is because of world health organisation infant feeding guidelines. Nutritionally speaking, breastmilk is the optimal food for infants. There's no getting around that- it is what it is. That's not to say formula is a terrible thing. It's fine. I'm very grateful for it's existence! It has certainly contributed to the health of my children. But I see what you're saying- we need to look beyond nutrition and look at the whole picture of mums and babies and what works for each family.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    And I think this is what is leading to the PND rates. If all women truly believed that, and were told that by med pros we wouldn't put such pressure on ourselves that leads to the depression. If formula was touted as a valid, healthy alternative women would still struggle and have issues, but the jump to formula would be so much easier emotionally.
    I see a lot of women in pro bf groups on fb banging on about how terrible formula is. Sure, it's not the same as breast milk. But it doesn't try to be. It's a different think. You can't recreate the live antibodies and stuff in bm. They seem to have come such a long way in developing formulas though, I just can't believe half the stuff I read people saying about it. It is a valid option. It's not the same as breastmilk but that doesn't make it invalid. Women in these groups are beating themselves up over giving one top up or one bottle one time. It's senseless,

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    I had to link this, and yes before people ask, it's satire with some truth mixed in. Just adding it for a laugh more than anything, but also laughing at it's often true.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/new...-always,36823/

    BALTIMORE—A study published Tuesday by researchers at Johns Hopkins University has discovered a correlation between breastfeeding and unequivocally knowing what’s best for other people at all times. “The data suggests that the simple behavior of breastfeeding one’s infant dramatically improves a woman’s ability to identify with perfect precision what’s wrong with everyone else in every situation,” reads the study, which observed thousands of nursing mothers nationwide and documented their heightened wisdom of postnatal care, publicly acceptable behavior, proper food choices, pediatric development, and countless other issues. “We found that these new mothers not only developed but loudly vocalized a greatly expanded comprehension of right from wrong, appropriate from inappropriate, and healthy from severely detrimental. And the effects were immediate, with women gaining this remarkable knowledge at the very moment they began breastfeeding.” The study also indicated that nursing greatly boosts a mother’s immunity to others’ viewpoints.
    Hahahaha I've met these types!

  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I see a lot of women in pro bf groups on fb banging on about how terrible formula is. Sure, it's not the same as breast milk. But it doesn't try to be. It's a different think. You can't recreate the live antibodies and stuff in bm. They seem to have come such a long way in developing formulas though, I just can't believe half the stuff I read people saying about it. It is a valid option. It's not the same as breastmilk but that doesn't make it invalid. Women in these groups are beating themselves up over giving one top up or one bottle one time. It's senseless,
    Thank you I see it similar to c/s. Obviously babies weren't naturally meant to come from an incision in our tummy, if they were we'd have zippers. That doesn't mean the reasons many have to have or choose c/s isn't valid or their right. Yes there are some risks to c/s. But you have to weigh that up against the reasons it's been ordered. Does the risk of junk on their chest worse than a breech baby being born to med pros who sadly don't know why to deliver them anymore and they die? Does the risk of asthma outweigh a woman balling her eyes out every feed who cannot bond with her baby or even look at them bc they hate bfing so much?

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  8. #45
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    Can I just add another thought to this. I see what you are all saying about the external pressures put on mums to BF from health professionals, other mums and society in general and I see how this can lead to feelings of failure and PND but what about the internal pressure. Do you not think that these feeling of failure are linked closely to a woman's own wish to BF? The internal struggle that I want to do this but it's just too hard. Research seems to suggest that most women wish to BF when they are asked antenatally. Feelings of failing to meet a goal were mentioned earlier in this thread. Or is the main problem that 'we' can't seem to find the middle ground of supporting women who want to BF in a real, practical and meaningful way while also respecting and supporting mums who do not wish to BF. I totally agree that we seem to have the balance all wrong at the moment..... Most BF mums I know don't feel supported and frequently complain about being asked incessantly about when they are going to wean, being told pain/mastitis/hourly feeds/etc is just normal so suck it up, many many comments about their milk being inadequate in some way and all the stress of being judged when feeding in public. Bottle feeding mums equally get negative comments from strangers when feeding in public, berated by know-it-all breast is best family and all of the other examples that you have mentioned above. We as mummy's just can't win hey?! So do the BF mums fair better in the PND stats tho because although they are getting the external judgement they at meeting their own internal goal but the mums who wanted to bf but couldn't are not succeeding in what they themselves planned to do????

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedCreamingSoda View Post
    Do you not think that these feeling of failure are linked closely to a woman's own wish to BF?
    Absolutely and that is what the study is saying. Women that are able to follow through with that they want - they want to bf and succeed, they never wanted to bf and go straight to formula - end up with lower rates of PND. It's those that want to bf and can't that really suffer.

    But my argument is, why are we so desperate to bf to begin with, often to our own detriment? Why is formula such a terrible thing? Yes it's natural, it's how babies were genetically meant to eat. But I argue it more than being biologically driven to bf. It's the external pressure that pushes us over the edge. If formula wasn't so denigrated by the med pros we have close contact with when we are at our most vulnerable, I believe there would still be feelings of sadness and loss, but not the same levels of PND we are seeing.

    I should add to answer your further questions. I think most bfer aren't judged for bfing generally, but feeding in public, feeding past the illusive 12 months. Bfing is still seen as the gold seal of 'good' parenting.... just with conditions iykwim. I suppose what I'm trying to say, not so succinctly, is that yes, how a mother fees about the feeding method is the main reason, but external judgment def plays a role for ffers as well.
    Last edited by delirium; 03-09-2014 at 14:20.

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  12. #47
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    I think it's also the language that is often used by "professionals". Breastfeeding mums are "nourishing" their babies, whereas ff mums are feeding. It's the same with birthing babies. The language used around emergency c/s can be perceived as very negative ("failure to progress", the word "failure" can be very emotive). So much judgment can be loaded into the words that we use. A close friend has a 2 week old baby she is formula feeding as her DS is having massive attachment issues and the number of people who ask "what's in the bottle?" Is amazing. Not necessarily are they judging her (often they're genuinely curious) but she's finding it tough and she is a) a third time parent and b) a very confident person but she's finding this really tough as she feels she has to explain again and again why he's on formula. If I ask someone what is on their child's sandwich and they tell me vegemite I don't expect an explanation.

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  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    And I think this is what is leading to the PND rates. If all women truly believed that, and were told that by med pros we wouldn't put such pressure on ourselves that leads to the depression. If formula was touted as a valid, healthy alternative women would still struggle and have issues, but the jump to formula would be so much easier emotionally.
    So true. And it's way more militant here than in other places (like UK). My mum couldn't believe all the propaganda over it when she came to visit when DS was a newborn. And she used to be a midwife!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    I see a lot of women in pro bf groups on fb banging on about how terrible formula is. Sure, it's not the same as breast milk. But it doesn't try to be. It's a different think. You can't recreate the live antibodies and stuff in bm. They seem to have come such a long way in developing formulas though, I just can't believe half the stuff I read people saying about it. It is a valid option. It's not the same as breastmilk but that doesn't make it invalid. Women in these groups are beating themselves up over giving one top up or one bottle one time. It's senseless,

    And that's half the problem. Somewhere over the last 20 years when bf became all or nothing, formula became the devils milk. This right here needs to change. Health professionals, LC, the ABA, mums, midwifes etc need to STOP the demonising of formula and the all or nothing approach to bf. I'm quite confident if formula wasn't seen in such negative light of it "killing your baby", many, many bf relationships will be saved and in turn raise the rates.

    For goodness sake, I for one am so over the breast, breast, breast message and the "ewwww, omg formula will make your baby stupid,fat and disease ridden". If you can't tell a bf baby from a ff baby or a bf adult from a ff adult then SURELY formula is doing its job of growing babies into toddlers into children into teenagers and adults. Isn't this a good thing, can we be praising and kissing the ground of formula makers for keeping MILLIONs of babies alive in the past century. Why is this product demonised?

    Only 40 years ago good old carnation milk and sunshine powder was making babies thrive. I'm sure we all know someone raised on one of these, I know many family members the picture of Health and all in professional roles. Isn't this telling us something.

    has anyone seriously gone up to their mum and said "wow mum thanks so much for bf me for 8 months, that means a lot to me, you are an awesome mum no because it.just.does.not.matter. Seriously who here cares if they we're raised on formula or breast milk. Who here has lost sleep cos their mum only bf them for 2 months, 4 months, 2 years or not at all. I bet no one . I couldnt care less and I'm sure my kids won't either.

    H3ll millions of children are starving across the globe and no body is concerned, right in our country there is an ad campaign for kids going to school hungry and doing some breakfast campaign and no one seems concerned about this, so,despite all these issues plus many more of poverty, abuse etc, we have mums nourishing their babies with formula and they are being being criticised for FEEDING their baby. Is anyone as perplexed as me? Mums are FEEDING their baby and being punished by society.

    I for one find formula absolutely brilliant stuff, having 2 babies who couldn't feed (I had an abundant of milk, good nipples, everything in place but babies who would not latch from deformities of mouth/palate).

    Oh and before someone mentions it, as they will surely do whenever these discussions come up and someone praises formula, NO I do not work for Nestlé .

    (oh and I'm also waiting for the "back in the 50s,60s formula companies did a lot of damage to babies.... Yeah well so did drs and peads for advocating CIO methods but everyone still sees a dr or pead and no one holds it against them).
    Last edited by adeline14; 03-09-2014 at 17:53. Reason: Adding in

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  17. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebs View Post
    It's funny you should say that - I noticed a lot have "diagnosed" themselves with vasospasm - but you can't actually do that - and when you do get diagnosed the first point of call is to see a specialist to see about autoimmune diseases (which I have and only found out because of my breast feeding nightmare). So I suspect you are right - they think they have it - but they aren't actually diagnosed so it is probably something else - like attachment pain.
    My GP diagnosed vasospasms. In saying that he was a new GP that was recommended to me by an LC because he had specialist knowledge of BFing. I fed DD in front of him and still had my boob out and he saw the whitening of my nipple. At that time my current GP didn't even know what vasospams were. He gave me some medication but advised that it had mixed results. Turns out it didn't to a thing for me. I still had all sorts of pain going on at the time from BFing and vasospasms was just one source.


    Quote Originally Posted by RedCreamingSoda View Post
    Can I just add another thought to this. I see what you are all saying about the external pressures put on mums to BF from health professionals, other mums and society in general and I see how this can lead to feelings of failure and PND but what about the internal pressure. Do you not think that these feeling of failure are linked closely to a woman's own wish to BF? The internal struggle that I want to do this but it's just too hard.
    Thanks so much for this!! When I had DS the only pressure I had to BF was from me and I was shocked at how painful and hard it was and devastated when it didn't work out. The years of guilt I lived regarding this were from my own feelings of failure, not because of external pressures.


    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    But my argument is, why are we so desperate to bf to begin with, often to our own detriment? Why is formula such a terrible thing? Yes it's natural, it's how babies were genetically meant to eat. But I argue it more than being biologically driven to bf. It's the external pressure that pushes us over the edge. If formula wasn't so denigrated by the med pros we have close contact with when we are at our most vulnerable, I believe there would still be feelings of sadness and loss, but not the same levels of PND we are seeing.
    To be honest I don't know why I was so desperate to BF DS - I guess it came from just knowing that BM is optimal baby food and I had no reason to believe that it would be anything other than straight forward. It never occurred to me that it can be stupendously difficult and painful. I certainly felt less of a mother when I first gave him formula. I expressed for a few months and I remember giving him his first bottle of EBM and instantly feeling proud and all the guilt draining away for those brief moments.

    I know part of me was going to BF DD come hell or high water, as a means of finally getting over the residual feelings of failure I had regarding BF'ing DS. These were all pressures I put on myself though, they did not come from external sources.

    I am not an Aunty and had only held a baby once in my life before having DS. None of my geographically close friends had had babies so I was very much out of the loop regarding the pressures mothers feel about feeding their babies when I had DS. But for what ever reasons, I still put a huge amount of pressure on myself to BF and felt awful that it didn't work out. To clarify, I never felt bad about giving him formula, I felt bad because I wasn't giving him BM.


 

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