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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdgirl View Post
    What happened to the disease known as Black Death? Do some diseases just go away? Genuine question.

    I'm really not interested in debating this topic but I have to say I find it kinda obsolete to keep saying would you take your unvaxxed kid to a third world country. Um no I have no desire to go to a 3rd world country really. The sanitation issues in those places are why diseases are so rampant. I don't see how it can be comparable.

    If you want to believe vax works you have to keep getting them and in reality, people are not. So I don't know how herd immunity can be fail proof, just from general observation.
    Obviously it's not anyway because vaxxed people still contract the diseases. That's a fact.


    also just curious if the researcher types here can get any info on how much cancer and other chronic disease has risen in first world countries since all the vax started and if there's any correlation? I'm curious. As well how much cancer etc is in the third world countries? Are we trading one disease for another?
    What I don't like about vaccination is that it's a blanket treatment. One shot fits all people but the reality is it may do something different to everyone.
    I don't know any adults who are regularly vaccinated, only my mil gets flu shots because of her work.
    my mind boggles at how this is all supposed to be working.
    1. Vaxed people still get the VPD’S – this is true – a vax generally doesn’t have a 100% effectiveness. I just did a quick google so that I could come up with an example, and found that the full two doses of measles vax gives ‘almost 100% protection’. So, lets just say that being fully vaccinated for measles means that you are 98% protected. Opposed to someone who is unvaccinated, who is 0% protected. I think of the vax like a condom (lol) – a condom prevents (something like) 97% of pregnancies. Get 10 women having regular sex with a condom, and 10 women having regular sex without a condom. Which group would you expect to have more unplanned pregnancies? So think of measles like an unplanned pregnancy, and the vax like a condom. It will spread a lot quicker and there will be a lot more occurrences without the vaccination.

    1. Medical advances – the two greatest and most significant medical advances of this century are antibiotics, and vaccines. Antibiotics prevent sepsis and death from bacterial infections. Vaccines prevent viruses. I watched an amazing doco on ABC I think called ‘Pain, pus and poison’ – it really showed in such a simple way how these two things have totally changed our world.

    2. ‘other’ diseases, such as cancer, etc – there is a 100% death rate amongst the population. We are living longer – the life expectancy is the greatest it has ever been in recorded history. One in 3 of our children will live to be 100. This tells me that, although other diseases may SEEM more prominent, the fact that we are living longer as a population means that we are actually doing OK. We don’t die in childhood from measles and polio and smallpox like we used to, so we get cancer, or dementia, or alzheimers. We are dying from ‘old people’ diseases, rather than childhood diseases. This is a good thing that we are living long enough for this to happen – but we all gotta go someday.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilkingMaid View Post
    See I find it funny that vaxxers go on about listening to medical professionals about vaccines, then when a site is posted who are ALL medical professionals, but against vaccines/mass vaccination, then suddenly their medical qualifications are not part of the picture.

    There really are two sides to the vaccine debate, and that is within the medical profession itself.
    You're posting articles from the equivalent of the AVN and then crying foul when people aren't prepared to take it seriously. C'mon, the authors in these articles are not credible professionals in this field. They are biased, self interested people who are peddling misinformation to try to sell quackery.

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  5. #53
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    I just googled Suzanne Humphries, author of the 2nd article. She is a kidney doctor, who is trying to pass herself as an ‘expert’ in immunology – but her training is as a kidney doctor, not an immunologist. I am an early childhood teacher, and my experience and training is with educating children aged 0 – 8. I could write a textbook about how to teach year 12 English, but even though I am a teacher, it is not my area of expertise.

    She also claims that homeopathy is more advanced than evidence-based medicine – and recommends that people’s medical care should be limited to chiropractors, homeopaths, and osteopaths.
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Suzanne_Humphries

    So, I understand your annoyance, OP, that people are dismissing the articles as not being reputable – but just because someone has DR in front of their name, or MD after their name, does not make them a reputable source of information. The fact that both authors dismiss evidence-based medicine suggests that they cannot be a reliable source of information – I think the key is EVIDENCE-BASED medicine, not OPINION-BASED medicine. The evidence is so clearly and wholly in support of herd immunity.

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilkingMaid View Post
    He does kinda touch on that here...



    [/FONT][/COLOR]but I do agree with you VP, exact numbers would be very interesting, with the causes ie, are the alleged resurgences causes KNOWN to be falling vax rates, or is there another reason? eg new variations of the diseases?

    One of the downfalls of the flu vax being that they can only make it from flu strains that have actually occurred, so you get protection from *those* strains, but of course can not protect you from a variation which newly mutates.
    I think with some - like whopping cough - there are different strains developing - which is why even with a. 95% vaccination rate there is still plenty of cases of immunised children getting it - they still recommend vaxing but it's not a guarantee and that also means the majority of adults won't be up to date so that does confuse me with the herd immunity argument as well!

    http://m.smh.com.au/national/health/...414-36np3.html

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  9. #55
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    Default Herd Immunity: Fact or fiction?

    Well, I read them both. Thanks for posting them MM. Just out of curiosity, was there much out there that asserts that HI is a myth that you could find? Was this the best of a range or is it relatively fringe opinion?

    I'll fess up - I had never heard of HI before being on the hub. If I look past the lack of solid references/research in the articles, and acknowledge that some of it went totally over my head, I just...it all just seems so logical to me that HI would exist. It's hard for me to imagine otherwise now, and I'm not sure what I could read that could make me truly question it. Although I do think the differences in immunity acquired what these authors call 'naturally' or through vaccines would be interesting to explore.

    I don't buy the criticism of boosters as an argument against it, either. That's not proof that HI wouldn't exist while the vaccines are 'active' within individuals, at least not the way I interpret the articles. Also, this comment really peed me off:

    'Instead of figuring out why a very small number develop dangerous invasive conditions, vaccine enthusiasts recommend vaccinating as often as possible in order to protect against something that would never be a danger to the vast majority of those vaccinated.'

    And the comment about doctors having never seen anyone die from tetanus annoyed me too. Isn't the first course of treatment for someone at risk of contracting tetanus to vaccinate?

    Hey look, I'm super tired and may possibly be totally misreading this stuff. Thanks for sharing, though, I like to learn new things. Even when I clearly don't learn anything :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by J37 View Post
    I am flabbergasted that we are still "debating this" in 2014. Genuinely incredulous. For me, it's a bit like asking "Is the world really round?".However, I realise that not everyone understands immunology and the very complex pathophysiology of infectious disease. It is very complex. But quite honestly...I think it is truly wonderful, and has done SO much for the health and longevity of modern man. I think that is marvellous Sent from my GT-N7000B using The Bub Hub mobile app
    This. Also incredulous.

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    Just in regards to the quote you posted @MilkingMaid

    Speaking as a lay person, not a medic. Tetanus requires a specific type of event to occur before a person can get infected (wound), it is a bacterial infection, it cannot be spread from person to person. I would hypothesize that the reason why there has not been a resurgence of tetanus (despite immunity not lasting as long as previously thought and thus the general population probably not adequately covered) is because possibly, when people receive a deep cut or wound they seek medical treatment and are then given the vaccine as part of that treatment?

    I would say that Tetanus is probably the one infection that would not be impacted by herd immunity so I think to include that in the article is a bit disingenuous, if I can figure that out as a lay person I am sure the author knows that!

    When I was a medical student almost 40 years ago, it was taught that the tetanus vaccine would last a lifetime. Then 30 years after it had been mandated, we discovered that its protection lasted no more than 10 years. Then, I ask my doubting physician if he or she has ever seen a case of tetanus? Most have not. I then tell them to look at the yearly data on tetanus infections – one sees no rise in tetanus cases. The same can be said for measles, mumps, and other childhood infections. It was, and still is, all a myth.



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    Baylock - who claimed that Obamacare had Nazi overtones. Hmmmm. Particular thoughts on the article are, when we are talking about health, they need to come from unbiased and scientifically backed sources, which these most definitely do not.

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    This is one of those things, like anything really. If you believe in something, you can pretty much find a study to back it up (not saying that you are doing it. But if I read that and didn't bother reading anything else, I might think "heck, the pneumoccal vaccine isn't effective". But I just went looking and there are heaps of peer reviewed articles showing the exact opposite.

    "Following universal vaccination, the overall incidence rate of invasive pneumococcal disease decreased by 75% among non-indigenous children under two – from 78 per 100 000 in 2002–04 to 19.5 per 100 000 in 2007. Invasive disease caused by the seven vaccine serotypes declined by 97%, from 60.9 per 100 000 to 2.1 per 100 000.3,9 Rates of hospitalisation due to pneumonia have decreased by 38% in children under two years.10 Substantial reductions in invasive disease were also observed in older children and adults, the age groups who did not receive the vaccine. The decline was mostly due to a decrease in invasive disease caused by the seven vaccine serotypes (see Fig. 1). 3,4 This suggests a strong benefit of herd immunity, additional to any direct effect arising from the adult 23-valent vaccine program."

    http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/36/3/88/93

    And this was before the 23 strain vaxx was introduced last year.

    As someone who contracted pneumoccal pneumonia last year as a complication from influenza, I didn't hesitate to get both vaccines recently. It is a very scary disease, especially if you get a severe case.

    Quote Originally Posted by MilkingMaid View Post


    1. ??

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    Yeah, I agree, if sanitation was so good in Australia, what about polio? In the 1950s we had a massive polio outbreak, with 10,000 being diagnosed in 1953, the vaccine was introduced and within a couple of years we had almost eradicated the disease. If anything that proves it is vaccination - not sanitation. Not to say disease don't spread when sanitation isn't good. But disease spread regardless, and would continue to do so if it wasn't for vaccination. Which we are seeing more and more, now that vaccination rates are dropping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Busy-Bee View Post
    Surely if we were so good at sanitation then gastro would be much less of a problem too.

    ETA: And the common cold.

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