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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilkingMaid View Post
    See I find it funny that vaxxers go on about listening to medical professionals about vaccines, then when a site is posted who are ALL medical professionals, but against vaccines/mass vaccination, then suddenly their medical qualifications are not part of the picture.

    There really are two sides to the vaccine debate, and that is within the medical profession itself.
    I haven't read the articles except the excerpts you posted here. I don't talk to medical professionals about vaccines. I am pro-vax simply because I can see that through history we have managed to eradicate certain diseases since vaxxing and also the prevalence of others has been severely reduced. For me this is enough to vax my child and hopefully continue the reduction and eradication of nasty diseases. I don't get the flu vax and neither will my daughter - it doesn't seem to have any point considering they can't necessarily have the correct strain. With herd immunity I don't know if it exists or not (I'm sure it does but I haven't looked at the science so I can't be certain) but I'm willing to vax because if it does and my child being vaxxed can help another that is medically unable to be vaxxed then that makes it worth it (alongside the benefit to my child obv). I would rather assume herd immunity does exist (and be wrong) and do everything I can to help propagate that than assume it doesn't (and be wrong) and have a negative impact on someone else's quality of life as a result.

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  3. #32
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    My comments are more in general to the 1st article.

    Firstly, I don't have any qualifications in immunology/vaccinations/medicine nor can I say I am especially researched in that area so I am not in a position to critique that aspect of the article.

    The first thing that stood out for me is that there is not a single reference in the article. The author has included assertions and figures with not a single reference as to where or how he has sourced this information. The article immediately loses all credibility at this point because for all we know, the figures are made up.

    In regard to the statements regarding more states, state legislature and/or courts 'forcing' vaccination - I would be interested for him to define what he means by 'forcing' and the circumstances and motivations in each case.

    With reference to the duration a vaccination is effective, many vaccinations have only been available in the last 50 or so years. Medical science has undergone a boom in the that period with the knowledge growing exponentially. One of the beauties of science is that it aims to be self-correcting, it is always improving, always learning more. For example, he states that,

    "When I was a medical student almost 40 years ago, it was taught that the tetanus vaccine would last a lifetime. Then 30 years after it had been mandated, we discovered that its protection lasted no more than 10 years."
    Two things come to mind here: When I was at school and received tetanus boosters through the school vaccination program it was known you needed a booster every (I think) 6 or 7 years. That was the 70s and 80s. Secondly, it really worries me that he had a medical degree (and I assume practises medicine) and doesn't embrace that medical knowledge and its application develops and grows over the years. Just because a doctor attended medical school and passed doesn't mean their medical knowledge is now complete. Medical science develops and grows, like all the sciences.

    In regard to herd immunity, I can't quote the precise figures experts say are required to keep a disease at bay but I think herd immunity as removing an organism's environment. If we removed all the gum trees in Australia (or at least genetically modified them so they didn't grow leaves but still grew) then koalas would have no where to live and bread so they too would die out. It's probably a very clumsy analogy but that's how I think of it.
    Last edited by Busy-Bee; 11-08-2014 at 14:20.

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  5. #33
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    What happened to the disease known as Black Death? Do some diseases just go away? Genuine question.

    I'm really not interested in debating this topic but I have to say I find it kinda obsolete to keep saying would you take your unvaxxed kid to a third world country. Um no I have no desire to go to a 3rd world country really. The sanitation issues in those places are why diseases are so rampant. I don't see how it can be comparable.

    If you want to believe vax works you have to keep getting them and in reality, people are not. So I don't know how herd immunity can be fail proof, just from general observation.
    Obviously it's not anyway because vaxxed people still contract the diseases. That's a fact.


    also just curious if the researcher types here can get any info on how much cancer and other chronic disease has risen in first world countries since all the vax started and if there's any correlation? I'm curious. As well how much cancer etc is in the third world countries? Are we trading one disease for another?
    What I don't like about vaccination is that it's a blanket treatment. One shot fits all people but the reality is it may do something different to everyone.
    I don't know any adults who are regularly vaccinated, only my mil gets flu shots because of her work.
    my mind boggles at how this is all supposed to be working.
    Last edited by Bluebirdgirl; 11-08-2014 at 11:47.

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdgirl View Post
    What happened to the disease known as Black Death? Do some diseases just go away? Genuine question. .
    Black Death is the plague and it does still exist. Sanitation levels (no excrement in the streets etc) is what has helped with the prevalence of that :-)

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdgirl View Post
    What happened to the disease known as Black Death? Do some diseases just go away? Genuine question.
    No, there was a recent case in the news. I think it was in China but I could be wrong.
    Black death was around when there was no sanitation and rats (which carried the disease) were rampant. Living conditions were also appalling for most and there was no understanding of microorganisms or basic hygiene. This is unlike the 50s and 60s where polio was rampant despite modern sanitation and hygiene practices (I know because I have talked to my mother about this who lived in south London at the time through many polio outbreaks and saw friends in iron lungs and forever disabled by polio.

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  9. #36
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    No offence but I don't think the sanitation in the 40s/50s/60s was even that great, from how my mother tells me she grew up in an average australian home in that period.
    It seems that a lot of the disease comes down to sanitation.

    Does anyone actually change their mind about things from posts like this? I know I switched camps so to speak but I was never particularly passionate so was open to suggestion.
    If my family and myself have been living off some herd immunity, then thanks
    Im not injecting any of us with things I don't understand.

  10. #37
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    Surely if we were so good at sanitation then gastro would be much less of a problem too.

    ETA: And the common cold.
    Last edited by Busy-Bee; 11-08-2014 at 12:07.

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  12. #38
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    There's also no vaccination for Ebola either, correct?
    Is that a fact or observation that people are living longer because of vaccination? I would have thought it was to do with a lot of other medical advances and that vaccination would be a small part if at all.

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    There is much more to illness and transmission than sanitation. Yes, some illnesses like Typhus etc are from dirty conditions. But polio, WC, CP aren't. Many of those illnesses are airborne and have nothing to do with sanitation.

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    I am flabbergasted that we are still "debating this" in 2014. Genuinely incredulous. For me, it's a bit like asking "Is the world really round?".

    However, I realise that not everyone understands immunology and the very complex pathophysiology of infectious disease. It is very complex. But quite honestly...I think it is truly wonderful, and has done SO much for the health and longevity of modern man. I think that is marvellous

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