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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    He obviously assumed you wouldn't return to work full time. I'm sure if you chose to, your career most definitely wouldn't be over. Its not the fact you're a mum, its the nit returning to work full time that can end or put career on hold.
    That is an immense generalisation. Sorry but as someone who faced a lot of discrimination in my professional career both before and after I had children it's generalisations like these that upset me.

    I was paid to work 3 days a week after I retuend to work when I in fact most weeks worked closer to 6 days, but I did that work at night or on weekends. The only people inconvenienced by my choice to work part time were me and my family.

    But I think there are so many more ways women are discriminated against in a domestic violence context that my working issues pale.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    ...so it is our fault we are unequal?

    How is a forklift operator more high risk that a childcare worker? A forklift driver moves stuff from one place to another (talking standard and not hi reach forks) whereas a childcare worker has responsibility for a number of children from babies to age 4- all of which are more volatile that a pallet of stuff

    I'm sure more people have died using heavy machinery / bring around it / in a workplace where they exist than looking after a group of children!

    I'll also read that link you posted. I am all for further reading and education on things, I just hope there is some methodology in there on how they get their conclusions,because reading a conclusion alone won't satisfy me.

  4. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirium View Post
    But why are more women not returning to work and fathers staying home? bc it's seen as 'women's work'. The argument has done a full circle and we are back to where we were before, where society clears plays a role rather than it just being purely choice.

    And I don't think more women need to return to work to ensure equality. They need to have their roles valued no matter what they choose.



    It is circular argument. What I'm saying is, yes it can be 'seen' as women's work, but its not the reality. Life is all about choice and yes unfortunately sacrifice and compromise, I just say stuff what society thinks, if you (royal you, not you, you) want to go back to work full time and your husband wants to stay home, then do it, nothing is physically or legally stopping this from happening, you can't blame others attitude stop you.

  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lili81 View Post
    what about both parents going back to full time work?



    if it works for both parents and the children, then yes. Why not?

  6. #55
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    I've read some comments and skimmed others.

    Firstly, feminism is not necessarily what you described in your first post. Just like there are a huge variety of Christians, Greens supporters etc. so too is there enormous variety amongst feminists. The people you describe have certainly led to the idea of feminism being a dirty word. When I was at uni, one of my majors was 'Gender, Work & Social Inquiry'... basically gender studies with a little more flavour. During first year, in a tute of about 15 people, we were asked whether who considered themselves feminists. About 2 people raised their hands, and 2 (including me) half raised them. These days, I'd proudly call myself a feminist. All the people feminists I know, men included, are simply passionate about gender equality. Seems like something worth fighting for to me.

    With regard to 'personal responsibility', it's an overly simplistic argument. The reality is that we have all kinds of social institutions and expectations which guide behaviour. We don't simply make our choices in a vacuum. Of course there's an element of choice in who looks after children etc., but not to the extent that it's simply a free choice. If you look at an entire population and see that there are massive disadvantages for a group, I think it's callous to simply dismiss that as their choice.

    Can you look at the comparitively poor health or education outcomes for Indigenous kids and say it's their fault, or that of their parents? Sure, there's choice involved. in terms of where people live, who they associate with, the emphasis they put on education etc. These, and others, are obviously the factors which lead to the poor outcomes. We all come from different backgrounds, and different choices are going to be easier/more desirable for some groups than others. The chances of a rich white kid in Sydney dropping out of primary school are somewhat different to that of an Aboriginal kid on a community. Should we chock it up to personal choice and move on?

    This is in essence what social policy is about. You identify issues that you thing are a problem for your society, and see what you can do to motivate people or to change systematic discrimination to move toward the outcomes you want. We know that there are major gendered disadvantages. Women are much more likely to live in poverty; men more likely to kill themselves. If you think those things are a problem, then we need feminism or moves to address gender equality. If you think those things are just an inevitable part of society and we should leave them be... then I don't think there's any argument to be made that would convince you otherwise.

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  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Sure. Thing is, my DH can't breastfeed. So I took mat leave and he didn't. Should I have formula fed for equality? Or should our roles as parents be valued more by society- so no parent is penalised for raising a child?


    No, but as I said, life is full of compromises, you could return to full time once your child stops breastfeeding and resume your career, albeit a bit delayed. Or yes ff. Many women would be happy to do that, if you choose not to, that's your choice, bur unfortunately men can't breastfeed, that's not men's or society's faults is it? No, the very nature of being a female makes that an inevitable Choice when having kids.

  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    It is circular argument. What I'm saying is, yes it can be 'seen' as women's work, but its not the reality.
    The fact it is seen as women's work therefore makes it the reality though. I'm not saying things can't or shouldn't change. I just think your view 'just return to work, you won't suffer any discrimination' is simplistic.

    I think narrowing the focus to work is also too simplistic. What about relationships and DV? rape? It doesn't take long to find a thread on here of women being treated horribly by partners that tell them they do nothing all day, they are fat and ugly, worthless, they are abused physically and emotionally etc. Should women just choose to not put up with it or is there so much more complex issues??

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  11. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atropos View Post
    Sure. Thing is, my DH can't breastfeed. So I took mat leave and he didn't. Should I have formula fed for equality? Or should our roles as parents be valued more by society- so no parent is penalised for raising a child?



    oh and who doesn't value this? Fair enough some may not, but they're two separate things. It just as I've mentioned, women either stay at home if they want which inevitably leads to less women in the workforce and therefore under representation, or return to work, two separate options, both with pros and cons.

  12. #59
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    I honestly cannot even believe we are having this conversation. Australia (not even to mention the rest of the world which can be far far worse) has a long, long way to go before we reach gender equality.

    12% of under 15 year old girls have been sexually assaulted as opposed to 5% of boys
    1 in 5 women have experienced violence since the age of 15 by a male partner (as opposed to men, who are overwhelmingly assaulted by other men, not women)
    More than one woman per week is murdered by a current or previous partner
    1 in 5 women and 1 in 20 men have been sexually assaulted as adults in Australia and 93% of offenders are men

    I love this quote, and it sums up to me why feminism is still so relevant:
    The United NationsDeclaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women (1993) states that "violence against women is a manifestation of historically unequal power relations between men and women, which has led to domination over and discrimination against women by men and to the prevention of the full advancement of women, and that violence against women is one of the crucial social mechanisms by which women are forced into a subordinate position compared with men".[81][82]

    Violence against women perpetrated by men is a huge issue in Australia. If you want a current example of how accepted this violence is, look at what happens when some young men are killed by Coward punches. There is a huge state led movement to change legislation, liquor licensing is examined etc. While every single week, a woman is murdered in her home (or on the street) by her partner. Where is the out cry?

    This is a gender issue.

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  14. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie Pallie View Post
    I'm sure more people have died using heavy machinery / bring around it / in a workplace where they exist than looking after a group of children!

    I'll also read that link you posted. I am all for further reading and education on things, I just hope there is some methodology in there on how they get their conclusions,because reading a conclusion alone won't satisfy me.

    By your argument, driving a car is operating heavy machinary.

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